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Vicky Pryce is guilty

699 replies

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 07/03/2013 15:05

Shock
OP posts:
kandle · 09/03/2013 07:26

I can't believe she thought she'd get away with it. The arrogence of these people never ceases to amaze me

Xenia · 09/03/2013 08:11

Yes, as Blu said the text to his son was particularly manipulative. I know who I think comes out of this worse and it is not VP. It must have particularly rankled with VP that she went against her preference of not taking the points and then the silly idiot was done for speeding a few months later and lost his licence anyway. You'd have thought he might have considered other road users, risks of killing someone etc etc but not as ever he put himself first.

BoneyBackJefferson · 09/03/2013 08:52

Why are so many posters playing the "poor little wsoman" stereotype?

For all we know it could have been her suggestion to do this.

hackmum · 09/03/2013 09:32

Boney: the evidence from her own children is that she was pressured by Huhne to take the points.

I'm inclined to believe her when she says he put a lot of pressure on her. And I think a lot of women would, given the choice, prefer to protect their marriage than to write to the police and say "My husband is lying, I wasn't driving that day" with the possible consequences that would entail.

That said, we are all responsible for our own actions, aren't we? Ultimately it was her decision to take the points and she has to accept the consequences of it.

galbers · 09/03/2013 09:49

If the archaic defence of marital coercion had been accepted this would mean that she was somehow saying she was subservient to her husband's will and had absolutely no choice. A cop out for an adult woman (or indeed man who doesn't have that defence) it is an archaic defence that should have been removed years ago.

They both did wrong and by her actions it all came out. If they had both been honest at an early stage in proceedings enormous CPS police and court resources would not have been wasted. Both were egregiously dishonest to the end. Both deserve to be found guilty.

Having said that a degree of duress in her case should perhaps result in mitigation in sentencing for her.

Xenia · 09/03/2013 09:50

The evidence is that it was Huhne's proposal. It is not that people are taking gender based sides. It is based on the facts as established at the trial.

Blu · 09/03/2013 10:57

Well, if the familiy's objective, after the event, was to keep everyone out of prison, the son's text to CH practically guaranteed that they both WOULD go to prison, the only possible qualifier being that the son's texts implied pressure. But not to the extent of the legal definition of marital coercion.

Even in the recorded phone call you can see that what CH is doing (clearly aware of the possbility of recorded calls) is saying that it didn't happen and that VP should say the whole points-swap was a malicious press rumour - a tactic which would, again, have kept them both out of prison. She of course was doing the same thing to some extent. Trying to 'nail' CH while escaping her part in it - lying about the aide and then claiming marital coercion.

Morally of course CH is the worse because he did the crime, sought to escape the legal consequences of his crime and lied on the form saying his wife was driving. And then continued with cynical tactics as decribed above to try and maintain the lie and escape justice. .

But the law is the law, not the Jeremy Kyle show or The Moral Maze, and it seems to me that they have both viewed the justice system as an expedient means to their own ends. Him to drive as he likes without sanction, her to use it as a way to avenge her ruined marriage. Both have been caugt out. Boo hoo.

And frankly, though I sympathise with the children (who wouldn't with those parents) , the son, who is intelligent enough for the higher education he enjoys should also have know what he was condemning his mother to when he sent those obviously consciously incriminating texts, saved them, and offered them as evidence.

hackmum · 09/03/2013 11:38

Blu, I broadly agree with you, but I think you're wrong about the son. All the son's texts said were that his father had pressured his mother into taking the points. Pryce had already admitted taking the points, so the texts didn't incriminate her in any way. Rather, they supported her claim of coercion.

Blu · 09/03/2013 12:19

Yes, my scenario is in the context that at the time of the texts CH was still maintaining that no points had been swapped, and had the family's objective been to keep everyone out of prison, it sould have been tactically better not to have done that. Dishonest, for sure, and therefore morally unacceptable, but in terms of protecting both CH and his mother from prison, more successful.

However he seems to have either been wanting pure and simple truth, or to support his mother's tactic of 'nailing' CH and getting off herself. The texts were lengthy, detailed and full of exposition, so I wonder if it wasn't the seocnd motive - supoprting his mother's tactics - rather than being on the side of truth.

But there are so many things about all this that we will never know.

And it must be bloody rough for the grown up children. All of it.

Xenia · 09/03/2013 14:47

I don't think it can be said it was wrong to raise marital coercion. It exists. The first jury almost got to the point of finding there was marital coercion. VP would never have relied on the defence if there were not a reasonable prospect of its succeeding.

All this stemmed from a man who chose to commit adultery and suggest a criminal offence to his wife.

higgle · 09/03/2013 14:59

I think she was, as her friend said on radio 4 the other evening, badly advised by her lawyers. There is nothing barristers like more than running this sort of technical defence.

Blu · 09/03/2013 15:22

Xenia - re the first jury:only by specualting about things that were not raised in the trial, like was she religious and had she promised to obey. I'm sure we could all conjure up imaginative circumstances in which coercion could happen, but the account of coercion as described by VP in the court was not sufficient to meet the legal definition of marital coercion.

Surely the 'marital coercion' will now be removed from the statutes? And coercion judges as any form of coercion would be judged whether or not to parties are married? The defence of marital coercion is not available to people in civil partnerships or cohabiting. And yet a wife in a marriage would be protected in that she would get her share of marital assets if her H threatened to chuck her out as part of the coercion, whereas a cohabiting woman living as a sahm in the hime of a man whose name is on the deeds is actually far more vulnerable and therefore coercion more easily affected, perhaps.

Anyway, there are other laws to cover 's/he told me to do it'.

Blu · 09/03/2013 15:22

No idea where that Grin came from!

catsrus · 09/03/2013 16:07

I don't think anyone, least of all VP, is playing into a poor little woman stereotype. What some of us are trying to say is that even strong intelligent, capable women can suffer the kind of EA that I believe underpins the defence of marital coercion.

Margaret Cook writes very interestingly on the topic today. As she points out thIs is a situation that women can finds themselves in after years together, there is a kind of chipping away of your core sense of self as you try to compromise and accommodate. Funnily enough the compromising and accommodating doesn't seem to go both ways with men like this.

carlajean · 09/03/2013 16:30

as expected, the Guardian coverage of this today neglects to mention that poor old VP's initial plan was to incriminate a totally innocent coworker of her husband's.

carlajean · 09/03/2013 16:32

I.e. 'strong intelligent women' can also be nasty pieces of work

Merguez · 09/03/2013 17:03

The fact that he committed adultery is simply not relevant.

babybarrister · 09/03/2013 17:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

carlajean · 09/03/2013 17:17

absolutely. the title of the thread is 'VP is guilty', not 'is CH a shit'

catsrus · 09/03/2013 17:47

But none of that is relevant is it? I think her actions in trying to 'nail him' were vengeful, nasty and stupid - none of that has any bearing on whether she was coerced into taking the points. I wouldn't particularly want her as a friend, based on what I've read, but that doesn't change my view that she was probably coerced.

BigBoobiedBertha · 09/03/2013 23:12

Sorry Limitedperiodonly - if you are still around as it is a whole day ago since I was last one this thread but I thought I ought to reply to your post to me because I am a bit surprised that anybody wouldn't be that 'principled'.

First of all, why would you go to prison for having 12 points on your licience? The penalty is losing your licence not your liberty.

In our case, it wouldn't jeopardise our financial security either. It might make life difficult in that DH couldn't get around but I think you are being a bit over dramatic there.

Put it this way, imagine you are in a car with somebody who habitually drives at excessive speeds and is regularly caught? Would you really want them on the road? Would you be happy for such a person to be driving your children around because I wouldn't and if the police thought he should be banned for a while, then I wouldn't be taking his points when there is clearly a lesson that needed learning.

That said I doubt my principles will ever be put to the test as DH has only been done for speeding once in 30 odd years, but it can't be that hard to imagine that somebody wouldn't want to be driven around by a speeding nutcase surely?

VivaLeBeaver · 09/03/2013 23:25

I think she should have been found guilty. Right verdict IMO.

One thing I'm amazed by are the email transcripts between her and the Sunday times journalist. They read very much like the journo stitched her up big time without giving a shit about the consequences.

Emails from the journalist saying "why don't we go on holiday together, you look tired, you could do with a break. The Times will pay and we can discuss things on a beach in Greece. We can say he coerced you into it so don't worry you won't get in trouble".

Sounds like they told her any old shit to get her to spill to them.

limitedperiodonly · 10/03/2013 08:13

Thank you for replying BBB I was a bit rude. Sorry.

I talked about prison because somebody earlier said they would send their husband to prison - no ifs or buts. That surprised me.

If it was speeding resulting in the loss of his licence and he was the breadwinner who relied on it I'd be angry but I'd give swapping points serious thought. I couldn't tell my children we didn't have food on the table because I'd taught Daddy a lesson about speeding.

If we had the money I'd tell him to suck it up.

I'm ambivalent about many speeding offences. In some cases I believe cameras are there to raise revenue and I think that could be why the police are relatively relaxed about about tracing the real driver of the car. If they were that concerned about road safety they'd deploy more traffic officers to stop drivers doing all kinds of dangerous things or give a telling off when people were just being thoughtless. But that costs money; it doesn't make it.

But I do take your point that you have to be careless to amass four traffic offences in the time period. And Huhne was speeding by a large margin in road works, albeit empty ones.

limitedperiodonly · 10/03/2013 08:51

viva Isabel Oakeshott was reviewing the papers on Sky News last night and was asked about befriending Pryce. She gave a good enough defence. She's trying to get a story. She doesn't owe anything to Pryce who is an adult and what most people would take to be a very competent one.

BTW I don't think they're friends any more Grin

JugglingFromHereToThere · 10/03/2013 09:13

I'm trying to remember what the forms were like when DH and I both caught speeding (on same stretch of road - where it's very easily done as IMO pretty safe to drive at say 35) .... wondering if the first form sent out has to be completely filled in by registered owner with no signature requested from the actual driver if that's someone different ?
If I'm right about that then maybe that's an area that needs looking at ?
I remember finding it distinctly odd how little input was requested from me, as the driver, when I was caught on the camera.
BTW I do always try to drive safely (because have lost good friends in RTA's) and agree with poster who said some of these cameras seem to be more money earners than safety measures. Incidentally noticed the camera in question (in our case) no longer in use ATM, but covered up - perhaps they've had a lot of complaints ?