Iain Duncan Smith really is an arse isn't he?

[MaryMotherOfCheeses]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21490542

"The next time somebody goes in - those smart people who say there's something wrong with this - they go into their supermarket, ask themselves this simple question, when they can't find the food they want on the shelves, who is more important - them, the geologist, or the person who stacked the shelves?"

There is so much wrong with this that I can't even begin. [cross]

All they have done is create more educated unemployed and that has backfired

As they are more intelligent than the mps making the rules and take them to court...and win

Maybe noddy, but I can't see how making poor people into graduates ultimately benefits a government like this. Surely they would rather just turn them into minimum wage fodder without the initial outlay ? I think the 21k earning 'floor' will soon go tbh.

Yes ivy that scares me. They will want to dumb us all down very soon.

Did you hear that Texas is banning the teaching of 'higher level critical skills' even at school level? A compliant workforce does not think critically.

I think that sort of thing may be coming our way. Gove's plans for the history syllabus sound like a move in that direction!

My ds and his mates know there are few jobs and are going literally for the lifestyle and experience I hear them talk and even the ones whose parents think they are going for the right reasons blah blah AREN'T! One of ds mates said to me that he was going to do politics 4 years approx 54k debt and what he really wants is to be a chef!!!!!!!!!!But school/parents pushing him into academic as he is capable??? and they just expect it of him

You know, moondog, you're right.... sigh..

I would say only 40%-50% of my students should really be doing a degree. And that is in a subject where the 'best' students supposedly apply.

The problem is that with the value of a degree downgraded and every office in the country requiring a graduate for their £16k a year job, people feel they have to go to university.

Tbh I would not want to employ someone who got a 2:2 or 3rd from my university. They will probably not be able to spell, or write English.

What is the 21k earning 'floor'?

argh noddy he may regret the 54k at leisure later!!! Being a chef is hard work and doesn't pay well. Why the hell not start now, avoid the debt, get somewhere and start saving etc... sigh

Consils, I mean that repayments of student loans don't start until you earn over 21k at the moment.

I think they will be able to control them better if they owe them £. I agree the 21k thing will go. They are cutting everywhere and eventually students will be the same as they are not seen as 'needy' or disadvantaged in any way. If they don't spend those years at university though what can they do? There really is no work

'The point of the scheme is to give people experience of work.'

Really Rhiannon? So why is my dad, made redundant after 40 years of work being forced onto it. You reckon he doesnt have 'the experience of work'? I reckon the PhD and Engineering work might mean he does. And the taxes he paid. But who wants a 63 yo redundant man?
So onto workfare slavery and thus depriving someone of a paid job. Or himself. If there's a job going stacking shelves he should be PAID for it.

The evil ight wing conspiracy posse haven't yet worked out there is no logic in sending scores of young people to university in order that they then become dissatisfied with their lot and get ideas above their station.

We all have an inflated sense of entitlement and have become used to luxuries that were unheard of even a few decades ago.
That's the trouble and that's why the masses never will rise up against the ruling classes. They're do busy surfing the web and planning their next purchase.
More fool them.

And the not having to pay back until you earn 21K.
What a hardship! Not.
I paid back student loans over years and years at a very leisurely pace.
Hardly hardship.

Ah no, I agree with you. But to be honest, the way that JSA claimants are currently "encouraged" to look for work is a complete nonsense any way. It's all about ticking boxes and applying for anything, regardless of suitability. I do think it is helpful for people to have to do something rather than nothing, but I would much, much rather see people encouraged to do charity or community work. Those like this geology graduate who had made sensible decisions about increasing their experience and improving their CVs should be applauded.

The thing is though, I believe it could be helpful for the claimant. I don't think it should be a punishment. I don't think they should work in Poundland because I, as a tax payer, shouldn't be paying for them to be sitting around. I don't think they should be forced to do it because they should get off their lazy backsides and work in return for the benefit. If they are working for a commercial enterprise then they should be paid. The community or charity work should be to help the claimant to become more employable. I honestly do not believe that most JSA claimants are lazy. I think most of them want a job - but can't find one. This, I suspect, is where I differ from some on this thread.

IDS hardly has a shining employment record himself, does he? If I were in his shoes I'd be careful before slinging mud at other people. Wonder what his expenses claims were like...

This will be a disappointing read for you Edam

Yeah, I just found that myself, fair play to him.

Still, the point about his employment record stands - he was chucked out as leader in a vote of no confidence because he was crap. A little humility is in order.

Oh my. My response above was to domesticgodless's post on page 5. Keep up, Verlaine, keep up.

IDS's wife used to be very handsomely paid to work in his office. Shame no one remembers her actually doing any work there.

I disagree.
I think he has reinvented himself and has had a really noble stab at getting this stuff sorted. It won't be easy and there will be no solution to please all. I like the way he and Frank Field work together on these things.

Oh really crackfox? Blimey, and I thought Moondog had found us a reasonably honest politician, at least in terms of not lining his own pockets. Such a shame cynicism about politicians is so often proved right.

Here's an article in Redpepper about Workfare:

an extract:

The impact on jobs and wages

The Work Programme is a real threat to jobs and wages. In an example uncovered by Corporate Watch, Newham Council filled an administrative role with a six-month workfare placement. A colleague explained: ?The basic starting wage for that level is around £17,000. Yet all she was getting was JSA and the fares for her lengthy bus journeys, while people doing identical work were getting a salary, paid leave and pension contributions. We were horrified.?

Last year, 800 station staff on London Underground were cut, prompting concerns for passenger safety. Just months later, a new workfare initiative was rolled out by A4E (one of the Work Programme providers) to provide 200 workfare wardens to make ?people feel much safer? at north London tube stations. The need for a uniformed presence remains; the paid employment does not

www.redpepper.org.uk/all-work-and-no-pay/

moondog my issue atm is that only certain people are being expected to drop their 'sense of entitlement'. That is the poor-to-lower-middle. The middle middles will be next of course.

Yet those at the very top are accelerating away from everyone. It is a new oligarchy, and don't try to tell me it's on merit. What you need now is to be born into a rich family or you are increasingly fucked. Nothing good about that.

Comparing your own student loan repayments to those which will have to be made by the next generation of graduates is a bit ludicrous isn't it? Your loans were nothing like 60k if you did your degree in the UK. Plus, presuming you are not in your 20s now, your costs, especially housing, will have been much lower in your early years of employment.

Politicians sadly display an astonishing sense of entitlement. They could sure teach graduates a thing or two about gravy trains.

well moondog.. if you think a "noble stab" at things is getting people to do work for no pay then I disagree totally

Looking at Ttosca's link here libcom.org/forums/news/dwp-assesment-workfare-it-doesnt-work-13062012

something occurs to me. We know that companies are being given financial incentives to make use of this free labour. (does anyone know how much? or how it works?) So not only are they saving on their wage bill but they are actually better off. The claimants can be sanctioned for any number of reasons, at that point they are also not included in the unemployment figures.

"Researchers also found that between May and November 2011 more than 1,600 had their benefits cut for up to six months for either refusing to start a placement or leaving it before it finished. One in five of those who didn't start MWA were sanctioned."

What is obv is that there is a huge displacement of money going on here, from the poor to the very richest. The company get cash incentives.......how is this paid for.........well by stripping people of their benefits!

In what way is this helping the real economy and in what way will this create demand and help to keep the rest of us in work? It won't.