witness in sex abuse trial commits suicide after grilling by female QC

[BobbiFleckmann]

the violin teacher who was the unwilling prosecution witness against the two Chethams Music School teachers killed herself in the middle of the trial. She told her friend she felt like she'd been raped again after the female defence QC accused her of lying in her evidence. Very, very sad.
My cynical view is that defendants in sex cases go for female barristers because they think it'll give them a veneer of innocence /respectability. I know the woman was "just doing her job" but I'd sure like to hear her views on methods of cross examination in sex abuse trials.

I appreciate I cannot know unless it happens to me.

I don't want to appear to trivialise the impact of rape. But if my daughter was raped I would not want to portray it to her as a 'life sentence' - her life is worth so much more than the criminal actions of someone else.

Of course Spero, but stuff like PTSD, or people whispering about you - you can't just wish it away. Rape victims aren't actively choosing to suffer ongoing effects.

Of course not, a lot is beyond your control. But it can't help to have lots of people around you telling you you've just been handed a 'life sentence'. I think that is giving the rapist far too much power and makes me really uncomfortable. Like saying a woman is 'ruined' because someone had sex with her. I would much rather the focus was on the criminal and his actions, not the supposed repercussions for the victim.

Spero nothing is portrayed to the victim other than it being something that they can get over.

But in all honesty it's bollox - its something you learn to live with.

As for focussing on the criminal - what criminal? If there is a not guilty verdict the victim - and other witnesses are the ccriminals - the legal system has just found them guilty of lying on the stand.

That's it feels, thats what people say about you. Don't be under any illusions that victims remain anonymous.

Yes survivors take back their lives - but at the very least it's a life without any faith or belief in justice.

We all think we know what we would behave like - but until its you - we don't really know.

I have a friend with severe mental health issues - when he was sectioned of 30 patients he was the only one on the ward who hadn't been abused.

He works with the homeless - the majority of people he has worked with ha've been abused.

People with drug and alcohol issues - many ha've been abused.

Many survivors go on to live a fulfilled life - many do not

and also Spero it sounds like you are thinking of one off rape - I am thinking years and years of systematic abuse that steals a childhood.

Your post of 19:22 said that the victim is already living a life sentence. This seems to be a pretty common reaction to rape. I don't want my daughter internalising this kind of stuff. What some disgusting criminal does with his penis should not define the rest of anyone's life.

(not that one is worse than the other)

yes, you are right, I was thinking of a 'one off rape'. I agree that sexual abuse carried out over a long period of time is a completely different propostion - particularly if you are talking about a child abused by a trusted adult. That is going to cause significant and long lasting harm to your ability to form trusting relationships as an adult. It is a gross breach of trust and will undoubtedly damage you.

My post is based on experience and a lot of research.

And the fact that a lot of trivializing goes on because it makes us feel better to think it.

I say all the right things - but in my heart - I don't believe them - I will never get over what has happened and it didn't happen to me.

Maybe 'getting over' it is the wrong phrase - but fighting against allowing it to define you? Or letting others define you by it?

Spero - I can't explain its too complex.

But I'll finalise this by saying - the rape crisis centre I sought advice from told me they have ladies come forward in their 80s, seeking solace before death - if that's not a life sentence, I don't know what is.

A good justice system is central to a victims recovery - its (I've been told) no good a thousand people believing you - if the jury doesn't.

And only a tiny fraction of cases even get that far.

sorry, I am not trying to get you to explain/talk about things you are not comfortable with.

I think Helena Kennedy made a good point when I heard her talking about this on Radio 4 - the criminal justice system is not about providing closure or vindication for the victims and that might be part of the problem - people go to court expecting to get something very different from what the process actually delivers.

no I'm fine these conversations are important - I was involved in a similar one about how barristers sleep at night.

I came away with a much better understanding.

Yes victims think the CJS is about seeing criminals sentenced but it isn't - its about making sure no one innocent is found guilty.

its shocking once you become involved in it how poor it is for the victim - even when you "know" based on reading mad research the stats, how victims find it - nothing at all prepares you for living through it.

I think it boils down to whether you are prepared to see a tiny handful of innocent men convicted or allow a large proportion of guilty men to go free.

I would still go for the second. But neither I nor anyone I love has been raped.

I'd rather neither - but as we currently have a system that sees rape as almost unpunishable I have to say I'd go for the ffirst option.

But someone I love has been systematically abused over a long period and it is suspected that there are other victims.

A family friend has been accused of 8 counts sexual assault that apparently happened over 30 years ago. We can prove he is innocent using legal documents without ever calling a witness to give evidence.

However as the police have used any evidence he has given them,dates, names etc to get the victim(??!) to change her statements around to fit. So we can't produce the evidence until in court now. Total madness

I have had a police officer say to me "If he is not guilty why did he ask for a solicitor when we arrested him".

The same officer also seemed to be trying to convince me that this family friend abused me as a child !. Which he did not.

This 60 year old man with a clean criminal record and how has never been accused/questioned by the police before was arrested at the airport in front of fellow passages. Handcuffed and transported for 85 minutes to a police station.
He had been traveling for about 22hrs before arrest. They then refused to give him water until interview a couple of hours later.

This is how we treat the accused in these historical cases. It is up to you to prove yo are innocent and if you talk to the police on arrest they use this information against you. Every lawyer we have spoken to says the same thing tell the police nothing until court.

How can this be justice and how much are this cases costing the tax payer because the police just want convictions. The public should be able to work with the police to find the truth.

I was the victim of a ABH and sexual assault by my now exhusband. The court process tore me to shreds. But Thereasa May is wrong we can not believe accusers know matter what. Innocent peoples lives are at stake.

I'm sorry Wonder Woman but as a victim in an historical case I know how difficult it is for them to even consider pressing charges, so the fact that they have suggests more to this that what is being let on. It took lots of evidence for them to consider it, and I was warned throughout the whole process it's really unusual in these cases to get more than a couple of charges if they even do so. Eight is a lot (what my abuser got charged with - one per year he abused me) and three attempted rapes.

And my abuser still has family friends who gave him character references in court as they couldn't believe he'd done it, including a friends dd who he babysat where nothing ever happened to her.

wonder woman the burden if proof about the man doesn't fall to you
irrespective of whether you think he good man,police will investigate
he's. hardly likely to admit to you if he is guilty

Moral Maze R4 8pm is on the Frances Andrade case (the rape victim who took her own life) and the criminal justice system failing in sex assault cases

wonderwoman you are talking absolute crap - no doubt because that's what you have been fed.

The police do not help witnesses come forward with dates and times - quite the opposite.

His is defence is the police helped the victim fit him up - do me a favour.

and of course you have sympathetic lawyers - they are on the side of whoever is paying them

We have decided as people that has been lied to by police officers and had our children interviewed on their own by social services. The later because we refused to play along with the story being told. Social worker states clearly we are wonderful parents and there is no abuse of these kids etc.We intend to go very public once his case is closed.

We are very luck to be a family with lots of local support. Have spoken with children and extended family everyone agrees this is madness.

The public have to be mad aware of the handling of these cases and that there is no fair police investigation. From the moment you are accused you become guilty until proven innocent.

I have made a very clear chart/timeline showing what she is saying and comparing it to legal documents/personal letters and public records to show where he lived and worked at the time of these alleged abuses. The timeline clearly shows that over the 6 year period she claims 80% of what she says is impossible. And this is a case that is going to court.

My hope is to have this chart plus some other information published in the press. Then maybe people will see how much there own families are in danger and things will change.

If you don't believe trust me I understand I would of been the same as you. However having lived this my views have changed completely.

The discloser of evidence from the cps shows no document evidence except old school reports on her behaviour at time. The witnesses are just friends saying that she was a troubled teen and a couple of people saying she disclosed to them a couple of years ago.

The police have failed to had other a copy of the interview tape. This is despite the fact he was charged months ago. The reason being they questioned him on her first 2 statements and have made changes since. This would show on the tape. If we get to court and still no tape it should mean the judge will say no trail but we don't want that.

We want her on the stand commiting predjury.

If I can get the press to run the story once we are legally aloud to do so you will all be gob smacked.