witness in sex abuse trial commits suicide after grilling by female QC

[BobbiFleckmann]

the violin teacher who was the unwilling prosecution witness against the two Chethams Music School teachers killed herself in the middle of the trial. She told her friend she felt like she'd been raped again after the female defence QC accused her of lying in her evidence. Very, very sad.
My cynical view is that defendants in sex cases go for female barristers because they think it'll give them a veneer of innocence /respectability. I know the woman was "just doing her job" but I'd sure like to hear her views on methods of cross examination in sex abuse trials.

Dom - only about 10-15% of rapes/sex assaults are reported. Of them, about 10% are considered viable by CPS (evidence not collected, victim not 'suitable', etc), of cases prosecuted about 60% are convicted. So the attitude of jurors only affects about 1 - 1.5% of cases anyway. So that's not the main problem, though CPS ideas of what jurors think may affect prosecution numbers.
Those worried about false accusations - the Home Office estimate 3-5% of reports. Only 10-15% are reported. So not a major problem.

Spero Inquisitorial system - maybe.

If accuser sued defendant in civil court, the decision is on the balance of probability.
Is it possible to devise a system combining these two?

Spero - yes - I think it should be the judges job to get to the truth - not be referee in a giant chess game.

To drop beyond reasonable doubt and move towards more civil type proceedings you would have to accept a greatly reduced prison sentence or even none at all, possibly fine only.

But you would hugely increase conviction rates. It's all a trade off.

But what makes the jury so special is that it is about involving the community in decisions about who is punished and for what.

Or is the juries day done? So many people wiggle out of jury service, doesn't seem much enthusiasm for it.

something has to give - its horrendous at the moment - defence appear to be allowed to do what they like more or less

As a society surely we should believe victims have rights too?

I'm told in Portugal they lock you up pending trial - but that is anecdotal.

Do juries in rape trials have to undergo a rape-myth-busting education?

They can lock you up pending trial here too - you can be out on bail or remanded in custody. Which is pretty shit if you spend a year in prison then are not convicted.

I agree something has to give but I don't want to end up in a situation where people can be accused of something really serious and then not able to defend themselves.

Of course victims have rights, but again you seem to have the starting point that everyone who makes a complaint of sexual abuse is telling the truth.

What's worse? An innocent kept on remand or a victim who doesn't get justice?

Genuine, ethical dilemma. Neither is acceptable but one of them has to be.

Statistically speaking, however, the number of victims who lie are far outnumbered by the number of perpetrators who lie. So it would perhaps make more sense to have the starting point of believing the victim.

Which, of course, would mean radically changing our legal system, so is very unlikely to happen.

but we all know no matter how compelling the evidence unless you plead guilty there is only a very slim chance of conviction - maybe the prospect of doing time regardless would deter some?

I guess it depends what you care about most - the 99% or more of victims who never see justice or the one in a million false conviction.

And I accept that for many its the legal system itself and the concept of innocent until proven guilty that matters but when it so clearly isn't working for victims - then something else has to be considered.

Rapists are laughing.

Spero - not everyone - but by far and away the overwhelming majority.

and in no other crime is the starting point of the defence that the victim is lying

As I have said - that she is lying is often the only tack the defence have. No other offence involves so little evidence either way.

That the majority are telling the truth doesn't mean you can assume all are, at least not while the potential maximum sentence is life.

the victim is already living a life sentence so that doesn't wash with me as a reason
for the failures of the current system

effectively we ha've a
guilty until proven innocent system for the victim
innocent until proven guilty system for the defendant

we have a prosecution under huge burdens of proof and evidence rules
we have a defence who ha've none

we have juries that don't want to be there and don't want to convict

we have rapists and abusers walking free most of the time

we have a justice system that only talks about defendants rights

welcome to Britain.

I fail to see how putting innocent people in prison makes it any better for women who have been raped.

we aren't putting anyone in prison at the moment

That isn't true.

People are being convicted. The approach of the police is much much better than it was 20 years ago.

We live in a country with a functioning police force and court system, I think we are pretty lucky compared to the rest of the world.

sorry that was facetious - putting the innocent away wouldn't help anyone - but we aren't convicting the guilty - and that is happening in large numbers.

what am estimated 1% conviction rate

people to scared to report

those who have been through the system describing it as worse than the abuse - you really believe it's working?

and you wouldn't feel lucky if you or someone you love had been the victim of this.

I have repeatedly said its the least worst alternative. I can't think of another way, unless you lower standard of proof but then have to accept lesser penalties.

Of course I wouldn't feel lucky if I or my daughter was raped but i would far rather go through police and courts here than say India or Pakistan.

Also I would not want to see rape as a 'life sentence'. That's letting the rapist control and befoul the rest of your life. Why give him so much power?

nothing is "given" - its been "taken" and then the system "takes" some more

then unless you have lots of money you habeas to live in a community that brands you a liar

without being horrible - unless you have really lived it you wouldn't understand how much the whole thing - not solely the abuse - pervades every aspect of your life