The BNP & Barking

[fuzzywuzzy]

Just read \link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4921540.stm\this} article and am now feeling incredibly relieved we're seriously considering emmigrating.

I have to say I have noticed the difference around where I live, dp and I used to be the only Asian faces around, and along with our black neighbours we were the only non-white people in this area.
Five years down the line and it's drastically changed, not that I'm complaining.
When we first moved here, we had a gang of young boys regularly stand outside my front door yelling abuse (I'd be alone in the house after a long day at work), one night around christmas a few of them tried breaking our door down. I was regularly spat at and called names, but we couldn't afford to move away then..... Now it's a bit more multicultural I don't have those problems (have to add my neighbour was a godsend and regularly sent the youths packing if he got home and found aggressive teenagers outside my front door....).

Dunno was wondering what other people think, anyone who lives around Barking/Dagenham think it's changed for the worse?? Do you really think the National Front have a chance at the next elections??

Flossam,

Another ex Barking resident here; I made the leap out several years ago now but return there now and again. The changes to the town and where I used to live (on the leftly estate around the back of Faircross) are staggering.

This gives more info re the policy on BCG these days:-

In the UK, immunisation against TB with the BCG vaccine is offered to:-

Babies living in areas of the UK where there is a high rate of TB. That is, areas where the incidence of TB is 40 cases per 100,000 people per year, or greater.

Babies whose parents or grandparents have lived in a country with a high rate of TB. That is, countries where the incidence of TB is 40 cases per 100,000 people per year, or greater.

The following groups of people who have not previously been immunised.
Immigrants to the UK from countries where TB is common.
People at risk due to their job. For example, health workers, prison staff, etc.
Close contacts of people with active TB.
People who intend to live for one month or more in countries with a high TB rate.

Note: until 2005, all schoolchildren in the UK were routinely given the BCG vaccine at about the age of 13. The policy changed in Autumn 2005 and those now immunised are in the groups listed above. The policy change was due to the changing patterns of TB in the UK. Rates of the disease are now very low in many parts of the country and children living in these areas have a very low risk of infection. However, in other areas, rates of TB are increasing.

I would have to agree with you re the housing problem; the council have received moneies for taking in other councils' tenants. It is a practice that has been going on for many years now.

I am a bit confused about this immigration issue or rather the perception.

First of all, I have heard complaints that illegal immigrants work for less than minimum wage and the claim benefits to top up. Illegals do not get benefits as far as I know.

I have worked in hackney housing, then a very large housing association and current wok in another borough's economic regenaration department. The so-called immigrants are not getting such a great deal. just a few loud ones that make it look like the majority. You don't get extra points for not being british on the housing register.

Immigrants include Australians, French, Spanish, Canadians and Americans. those on work permits, spouse visas etc not just asylum seekers. I came on a spouse visa years ago. it was valid for a year and i had no recourse to public funds (inlcuding council housing). Most classes of visa come with that clause. SIL is married to a foriegn national with a two year spouse visa and when she went to the job centre for help on stuff, his income was taken into account in calculating household income but he wasn't included in the headcount for benefits or points whatever that is. So she was assessed as a mum with a 7 yaer old daughter entitled to one bedroom flat rather than as a couple with a kid who should be on the list for a two bed.

I have had issues getting good jobs here. When I first came in I was told my 7 years work experience didnt count as I didnt have an EU qualification, my CV didn't have much hope of making many basic shortlists because my name was long and strange. I worked three jobs (day job, evening job and weekend job) for a while in order to get a deposit for my first house.

Work remains all about demand and supply. If a nice local builder gives me a quote that is higher than that of a polish builder and will take double the time to complete the job, the I will be quite happy to be prudent with my money. The challenge is for the local builder to step up his game somehow and find ways of differentaiting himself and making himself more efficient. by the way, the polish builders I have met are usually booked for months at a stretch. They live in the house that they are working on, refurbish day and night, take thier money and go back to poland for a break. No rent. the pound goes a lot further when converted to euros in thier country. The challenge is so economic that no amount of hatred and sending people back will solve it. the UK imports too much not to feel the backlash. Its about demand, supply and free markets. What about the doctors and nurses that make up the NHS. There are quite a lot of foriegn ones. after their shifts are over, they have live. preferrably somewhere in the vicinity. with thier families.

If you think the polish are cheap, you obviously haven't met the new wave of chinese builders. They're even cheaper and faster. And use cheap, tough made in china stuff.

"The challenge is for the local builder to step up his game somehow and find ways of differentaiting himself and making himself more efficient"

Someone who is tied to his community and family, cannot "step up his game" against someone who can live with four other men in one room and just work really hard for five years and then go back home. Any more than someone in Sheffield can compete against workers in Asia who are non-unionised and will work for about a twentieth of his wages.

I suppose that the difference is that the bloke in Sheffield can't direct his anger at the worker on the other side of the world who is undercutting him, while the one who is competing with workers in the same street, can.

I live near Barking and have to say there is a hell of a lot of people really peed off with the amount of 'non whites' that have moved into the borough. I wouldn't be surprised at all if BNP got in. (Though I'm not voting for them.) I can sort of see why some people would feel like this though.

Also DP is in building trade and moans that a lot of immigrants are taken on to a job because they get paid less.

Was good thing on R4 with Brian Waldren (remember him??) re M Hodge and the BNP etc. Thought it was well balanced. The fact that M Hodge is a real Blairite and still prepared to bring the issue up is telling I think.

I think everyone in the building trade should hold some sort of recognised card thing, which they then show the person who's house they're working in which ensure a) the person is legit b) the person then has to pay taxes. I think maybe this would prevent people working for pennies.
Having said that, dp was under-quoted for some work a while back, he refused to go any lower, and was subsequently called back several months later to re-do the botched job......

Lillypink, I think you'll find that immigrants aren't all non-white, there are many many white immigrants too.

Yes Caligual.
Good article.
Clear,simple and succinct.
I urge you all to read it.
(11:39 am yesterday)

Quite short too.

Yes I try and only post short things MD!

Fuzzywuzzy - what a godsend it would be to be able to get legitimate builders/ carpenters/ plumbers etc. whom you knew had been properly trained and qualified. AFAIC, the fact that it would stop foreign workers undercutting indigenous workers would be the least of the benefits - it would completely transform the Russian roulette process that is getting a tradesman in to do a job in the UK currently.

It has always struck me as bizarre that there is so little control of workmen who call themselves builders/ carpenters etc. They can cause havoc to householders and literally cost them thousands of pounds to put right bad work. And all the trade organisations which exist are completely and utterly toothless, even where installations are dangerous. They don't allow that in middle-class trades - they make sure they protect their status, reputations and income.

Yes FuzzyWuzzy, I thought that as soon as I posted. The ones I were referring in building trade are mainly Polish/eurpoean!

Caligula - my DP has various qualifications in his trade. They are not all bad y'know!!

Two things that ANY good/reputable tradesmen should have.

A CIS4 from the Inland Revenue with their photograph & signature on. Bit like a driving licence. Proves who you are and that you are legal.

Public Liability Insurance.

If requested either references or the offer to inspect some of their recently completed work.

Anyone working without these things is usually dishonest and if it goes pear shaped, you are not covered.

Oh and a certificate in City & Guilds etc doesn't actually mean you are any good. Neither do any of these logos on headed paper ie: the guild of craftesmen, master builders etc. You can buy them and they are not worth the paper they are written on.

Recently a company contacted us about advertising. They had a huge radio advert stating that all of their tradesmen were thoroughly checked, work inspected etc... When I asked them how they checked the standards of work, they couldn't supply an answer. Eventually someone rang me and said that they ask for references which could be anyone, friends family etc. They wouldn't know.

IMO word of mouth is the best way to find anyone good. Whether they are Polish/Chinese or American.

Just a thought, but would any of you let someone drive your car if they were uninsured.... I would say that your houses are worth more than your cars.

Absolutely agree UCM. And Lillypink, I know they're not all bad - I've met some brilliant ones - but the point is that without knowing all the stuff UCM has pointed to (and most consumers don't) it really is just pot luck who you get. Word of mouth is only possible if you know people who have had work done on their house.

The best builder I know used to be a member of the Association of Master Builders, but stopped paying for it because he said it's just a waste of money and as far as he was concerned, appeared to be a money collecting exercise for... the Association of Master Builders. But if I didn't know any better, I wouldn't have employed him because I would have thought membership of that organisation would be a useful filter to decide which builder is good or not. Can you imagine if membership of the BMA was no guarantee that your doctor was competent?

Who said anything about differentiating oneself in trade is the same thing as quoting the lowest price? It's about sales pitch and marketing. The best people at anything are never the cheapest.

Right now the general perception is that ALL local tradesmen are like the guys on watchdog. That perception will need to change. If you can sell your service well ( you are local. insured, certfied, traceable, stable and will repair any botched jobs at your own personal cost), you will get good business.

I just believe that it's better to be proactive than to whinge. There are people out there who will not hire immigrants. find them. if barking is so full of protesting people then surely they can be persuaded to show thier solidarity and patronise thier own. I know it's easier said than done.

But good luck to all the builders. Ironically, I know of people who are always looking for good local builders in london and the south east.

I've just returned from a weekend in sunny Barking and was talking to my family about this thread. As far as they're concerned, although the BNP thing is an issue, the bigger problem for people in the area seems to be margaret hodge and her past. I'm sure I shouldn't go into it here but it seems that many Barking residents are disgusted by some things she did in a different London borough a while back and she is now just trying to steer press away from this maybe?

Out of interest, does any one have the figures for the numbers of white British working abroad as well as the figures for the number that emmigrate? How many of the white British who leave this country because of the amount of immigrants to this country fail to recognise that they themselves become immigrants when they go to live in another country? Why is it acceptabe for white people to move around to other countries but when non-whites do it, they are viewed as benefit scroungers, criminals and the general scapegoats for the things that go wrong in society?

The truth is that when people talk about immigration to this country, they are referring to the non-whites. White Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, Americans, South Africans, Zimbabweans and even the Eastern Europeans like the Poles are far more welcome and accepted than people of colour. However, if it wasn't for the non-white immigrants, many of the low paid jobs in this country would go unfilled because many of the indigneous population will not do these jobs. When my parents came over from Jamaica in the 1960s, they worked for pittance but they paid taxes, bought their house on the little they managed to save, raised 5 children with the same work ethic and have never claimed any social benefit. I wonder how many of the white British complaining about the amount of immigrants to this country can say the same?

Out of interest, can local BNP MP in Barking rep ask immigrants to stop moving to his territory or affect the extent to which local brits are being priced out of jobs if this were the case.

On speaking to a friend, I just remembered one of the reasons why people take whatever they are offered is that a lot of jobs require you to have an NI number and the DSS guys require you to have a job. The bank will only open an account for you if you have a bill, you can only pay the bill if you have money. DH worked in a bank branch that refused to open an ccount for me becuase i had no bills in my name and no credit file. But they knew who I was. Sometimes there's little choice for the non-eu immigrant.

There's this new article about how 2million Poles have come into the country in just the last couple of years to work. Trust me ethnic minorities are the least of any workers problems. THe Poles don't need a visa and have easier access to stuff.

SM in the nineties I think the figure for emigrants outnumbered that for migrants.

Re this anti-white-working-class myth that the indigenous population did not want to do the jobs for which immigrants such as your parents (and mine) were recruited: I'm sure if the wages had been OK they would have wanted to do them. If the local council advertised part time road sweeping at £50K pro-rata, I'd apply. And probably so would all my neighbours! The reason they didn't apply in the forties and fifties, was employers didn't want to pay them the wages they wanted and demanded. They could apply for higher paid jobs and as there was a labour shortage following the war, their negotiation-power was unprecedented. If street-sweeping, nursing and bus-driving were paid as well as mining, steel-working and car-making, people would have had no objection to doing it.

Sorry that should say emigrants outnumbered that for immigrants.

But I'd be surprised if most people move abroad because they want to avoid immigrants. Surely those who move abroad tend to be quite open-minded and aware of the fact that they are going to be foreigners in their new homes?