Holidays in school time

[nutcracker]

Did anyone know that if you take your child on holiday in school time then you can now be fined ???????????? Personally i think it's ridiculous, I have only ever taken dd1 out of school for holiday once but i asked for books and worksheets for her to do. What do you think ????

Funnily enough, Janh, dd says this boy is unlikley to achieve much in exams, which he will be sitting in May. Could it be because he's been missing school, I wonder?? There are other sporting pupils who compete in their own time, not school time. It's giving him preferential treatment, imo, and I don't think that's on.

But Paula, we do the whole holiday by the pool bit in menorca or majorca and my dd who is 3 came back having learnt a few word in spanish.
She paticulary loved asking for the bill in restaurants, and quickly learnt hola and adios por favor and gracias, so even though we do a lazy holiday there are still learning oppurtunites.

Hasten to add the holiday was in the school holidays during summer.

oh I dunno suedonim- I think that's a good reason to miss school (the sporty guy) especially if that's where his career will lie. If he's ever going to be a comeptitor surely for him that side of his educaiton is more important than standard classroom stuff.

I think there is a huge difference here bwteen primary (especially KS1 and reception) and secondary school. SATS are cask imo, so I don't really see the problem (except to the stupid league tables) if someone misses SATS work (although because of the stupid league tables I can quite understand why teachers would get miffed).

Secondary is a different matter- I can see that for someone like hmb term time holidays are a pain.

I am in a quandry about next year (this year we're visiting rellies in NIreland so no problem). DS1 does not mix well with crowds. if its crowded there are so many things we can't do that I would love to go on holiday outside term time. BUt he likes school atm, and likes being busy, holidays are hellish really without having to be at home the whope time. Oh well maybe we'll be home edding by then.

Here in Kent the LEA plan to switch to 6 terms in 2005. They have said the idea is to standardise term/holiday dates across the county, AND across county- to Sussex & Surrey. That means that your 2 weeks in Feb & June & Oct will cost as much as the 4 weeks in Aug & won't help anyone.

Our "normal" holiday is a week in a caravan, usually Easter. The price actually doubles in August. (AND you don't get particularly nice weather then either!)

My eldest son's school only give permission for holidays in term time within the 10 day allowance if your attendance is over a certain figure (95% rings a bell). They drill into all the kids that they have to achieve this figure, so much so that DS insisted on going in when he was really unwell because being off would spoil his record.... (I think the best 2 or 3 attendance records get a prize..)

regarding sogy camping holidays being a deprivation indicator - not corfu. i have to agree with the previous poster who states that camping in august doubles too.

i agree its none of the govt business - but they have made it their business - which means its your business. i also agree that childen get plenty of holidays. i therefore propose that schools teach all year round with the exeption of bank holidays. still only allowing me to take my children out of school for ten days.

the travel industry would still get the flocks in august and raise its prices to the morons who pay it - affording them to raise their prices!!i would have less childcare issues and be more productive to society, and i would like to bet my children at senior school level wouldnt learn an awful lot more becuase of badly equipped teachers, ill equiped schools, an ill fuinded system and class sizes the govt will not address. thent he teachers can tell you that 10 mins extra reading at home can make a difference( where do i find 10 mins multiplied by 3?) and i wonder that if those 10 mins - those ten measly minutes as they like to tell you - those ten itsy bitsy minutes that Mnetters listen to their children whilst they wash the pots or cookt he tea - that those ten minutes make the most difference - mean the difference between pass and fail - that those ten minutes are oh so important - and i often wonder what my children actually do for 6 hours a day at school - then i remember the teachers who cant cope, are too busy, have other problems and the list of how hard done by teachers are goes on forever.

i have no idea how PE got into anything - i think its obvious that it benefits children at junior level and maybe at lower senior level - but when the teachers - as they have this year- tell me my son who will not pass his GCSE's in two years time - has to do PE becuase its compulsory - its a disgrace when he should be doing extra english and maths - as it happens he wants to do PE - becuase he likes it - i would rather him do extra english and maths.

however the point is it should be an option at option level. my son goes to a catholic school so religeon is also compulsory - thats fair enough - the price i have to pay to get him the best education in the area - for free so son has 6 options to take - and has 4 of those mapped out for him - english, maths,RE,PE. - oh and they do this citizen shit thing now too - which takes more of his valuable education up too

but for fecks sake mrs custardo ... if you dont do that extra reading with your son all hope is lost puts back of hand to forehead in melodramatic gesture i think my eldest son has come through the education systen *despite its inadequat schools and teachers. i have certainly failed him in some areas and if i think he deserves a damn holiday when i can best bloody well afford it then i will chufin well custarding take him when i fecking damn well chuffin please.

there you all trapped me into doing the school v's
parents thing instead of blaming the govt - but i blame the govt the schools and myself. but i dont blam myself for taking him on holiday - the story is bigger than that and only to bore you lot with when am pissed

I am extremely dubious about the idea that doing PE makes anyone cleverer. I think Steven Hawking is marginally brighter than, say David Beckham, and the average sports star is a pitifully small-brained creature. Indeed, if exercise makes you more intelligent, then god knows what the England football team would be like without it. Their collective IQ barely makes it into three figures as it is.
Mimm, well, you seem to be extremely cross that I gave some advice about books that might be helpful to would-be writers.I would like to point out that this advice didn't benefit me in the slightest and was purely for the benefit of those who professed an interest in writing a novel but having problems with structure and characterisation. I suggested a book that was actually recommended by a major agent and found useful by a successful published author who happens to be a friend of mine. I am baffled as to why you think this such a very terrible thing to do. You may think these books are 'rubbish' but there are those involved in the business of publishing who would differ with you.

BTW Custardo, I agree. I think the pressure on parents is extreme and that the gvmt finds it easier to bully poor parents rather than risk offending businessmen or cutting back on their profits from taxes. And we went on extremely crummy caravan holidays in Cornwall year in year out due to no money whatsoever - and in school holidays only.

Aloha - am not cross at all. Just pointing out that we are all entitled to our opinions, but as you say you are well-placed to give advice on writing. In the same way I thought that teachers currently in school would be best placed to explain whether or not missing school is important. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear before.

Also Aloha I think that you would be amused to know what I do now that I have left teaching!

Re the time thing. I teach most kids for 140 minutes a week. My average class size is 25. This means that each child would get 5.6 minutes of my time a week. If the time is evenly distributed. Sucks, doesn't it?

The absolute bottom line is that we should all have enough cash to take our kids on flipping holiday. I don't think that the government should be telling the holiday industry how it should be pricing it's holidays. But I do think that it should be setting the benefits system and the minimum wage at a reasonable level.

I think that there is a tendency for people to think that they know exactly what goes on in school now, based on their own memories of what happened to them in school 20 odd years ago. The two things are, in my experience, very different. And as I went to school 20 odd years ago, and teach in a school now, I feel that I have a reasonably informed opinion.

Aloha, nice to see comparisons of an n of 2, always so helpful to decisions on educational policy. Yes, Einstein has a higher IQ than Beckham. So what.

Are you saying that school should only foster learning of intellectual subjects? Why shouldn't someone who is poor academically, but great at football get a chance to shine at something? Don't you think that the lift it would give that kid's self confidence would carry over to other subjects? Because I think that it would. All kids need to have a chance to succeed. We are trained to make sure that this happens when we differentiate lessons.

You seem to be saying that kids don?t need to be in school to learn, and I?d agree with you. You think that life experiences teach us a lot, yes they do. But you them seem to be saying that children don?t learn anything from the experience of PE or sport. Seems contradictory to me.

Aloha said

"Sport is a ghasty thing IMO and should have no place in education."

HERE HERE !

About the p.e thing - I absolutly hated P.E, because i was no good at it. But the worst thing was that the p.e teachers absolultey hated kids that were no good at it and always singled them out in some way.

maryz I agree exercise is a positive thing and should be a normal part of life.
However, sport and exercise are two different things, and school sports are quite another.

IMO school sports unless they have completely changed since my day are quite likely to put some kids right off sport AND exercise for life .

I like talluahs school's approach to this: ' my eldest son's school only give permission for holidays in term time within the 10 day allowance if your attendance is over a certain figure (95% rings a bell). They drill into all the kids that they have to achieve this figure, so much so that DS insisted on going in when he was really unwell because being off would spoil his record.... (I think the best 2 or 3 attendance records get a prize..)'

OK perhaps a bit OTT if children are wanting to go into school if they are ill, but the principle of looking at the whole picture of attendance before giving permisson for a holiday in term time strikes me as pretty sensible. If your child is very genuinely sick, they bring in a doctor's note, and the sickness is not counted as missed days. If they are persistantly playing truant then no holiday permission.

It's that sort of aproach, doesn't cost much, doesn't interfere with the travel industry business, and is targeted that seems to me much more sensible than blanket fines for all.

AS for PE in schools. Oh I don't know. I can see custardo how frustrating it must be to have your son doing PE when you are desperate for him to have more literacy and numeracy teaching. I too share suedonim's dismay at the hypocracy of the schools heralding of the sports star who misses months of schooling, while parents are told holidays in term time are a no no.

Yet, I agree with hmb that sports has a place in school, giving sporty, but unacademic children a vital chance to shine at something. Also, tell me if I am wrong, but I'd imagine sporting success can help open doors to some jobs in the sports and leisure industry for these children.

And as the mother of lively, energetic sons, I know they need PE or sports of some sort at primary school to give them a chance to let off steam. If they were sitting at desks with just the usual playtimes day in day out, I am sure the lack of exercise would be detrimental to their behaviour.

At secondary level I can't comment from experience. Could PE be an option by the time childern reach 14? Sounds reasonable to me.

I also agree, jasper, that sports and exercise are two different things. I hated sports at secondary school (tennis, netball, hockey) and don't think I personally benefitted from them in any way.

Yet out of school I loved swimming and much later still got into dancing and running - my choices. I didn't need school to point me in the direction of exercise. I don't know what sports are common at secondary school now. If it's still the same old team games, I'm not sure how beneficial they are to older children.

Jasper, I agree with you that sports can put kids off excercise. I hated sports with a passion when I was in school. But as I posted earlier on in the thread schools can't just teach sports any more. They have to teach a range which includes three of

dance activities
gymnastic activities
swimming activities and water safety
athletic activities
outdoor and adventurous activities.

(Taken from the National Curriclum statements from KS3.)

PE is not just competative sports these days.

School has changed since most of us went!

What I can't understand is that there are posters who are saying that children learn from holidays and the same posters say that teaching PE in schools is a waste of time. Either you can learn from 'Non accademic' experiences of you can't. I agree that holidays can be educational, but possibly not enough to counter the school education the children will miss (unless the parents make sure the child catches up). Some posters seem to want to have it both ways.

This discussion has taken an interesting turn. My MA dissertation was entitled "Levelling the Summer Dip". I started out by trying to work out if it is true that children do slip backwards in their learning over the summer holidays. It was hard to come to any conclusions (as all other researchers have found) because of the multitude of factors and inethicacy of testing too often. There is evidence that they do, but none of it is wholly convincing.

I then went on to consider designing a curriculum that would mean that learning is not confined to the classroom, but is something that children do naturally during their play. This comes naturally to younger children (and their parents) but seems to be lost by secondary age, cetainly amongst my students.My school and borough are moving ever more in this direction.

I wonder if in fact this debate might like this solution - looking at a change in our perception of what education is, broadening teachers', parents' and students' opportunities to learn and teach.

sport in school (or out of school) isn't just for people who want a career in that discipline - given the current epidemic of obesity, a bit of running around (I agree there should more element of choice, opting for a particular activity like you might choose a book to read) has to be a good thing, and it'll get pushed out of schools at our peril.
also - I suffered from irritable bowel syndrome at school and lost lots of weight & ended up on quite a lot of medication to ease colicky pains, nausea, diarrhoea etc - and only once I got to university did a doctor explain to me that physical activity (I did running on his advice) helps to give the brain 'time off' (I studied english) - and I was off all medication in a month (after doing no exercise in the 6th form) thanks to the mix of positive thinking and a running about half a mile, three times a week.

I have horrible memories of all the "team picking" in school sports. Utterly humiliating for us uncoordinated types unless your friend happened to be team captain.

I agree newthinnerdragon, the only sport i liked was lacrosse - our school (scruffy comp) hired a kit one year and no one knew how to do it so we were all pretty terrible but it seemed much more fun than hockey etc