Holidays in school time

[nutcracker]

Did anyone know that if you take your child on holiday in school time then you can now be fined ???????????? Personally i think it's ridiculous, I have only ever taken dd1 out of school for holiday once but i asked for books and worksheets for her to do. What do you think ????

I agree with Jan- I am rather enjoing this thread in a perverse way

LIZS, that's interesting, thank you. I had an idea the Swiss might be more regimented and obedient!

I think part of the problem with the situation in this country now is that school used to be much more flexible - no National Curriculum, no SATS, less strict work patterns, so if children did miss some school it was probably easier for them to catch up. People who are parents now grew up with that attitude to school and I think also most people are a lot more bolshy towards authority now than their parents ever were.

Administering the fines would be a nightmare - what will a school do if someone refuses to pay? Suspend the child?

My Mum and dad have taken my brothers out of school for a fortnight every year for 10 years! I really object to it as my youngest brother missed the 1st 2 weeks of secondary school. By the time he got there everyone had their own groups of friends kind of sorted and he was left trying to join in with them. Okay.... he didn't miss any educational stuff, but surely there is the social aspect of school too?

I don't think I could read and write when I started school! I was only 4.

SueW: know what you mean about 3 different half-terms weeks plays havoc in parents lives, but might solve other problems.

Nutcracker: sorry you were put off, but some subjects are just sensitive. I honstly wouldn't have picked this out as one of the sensitive subjects, either, but there you go! MNet is pretty nice, really.

JanH: Discipline in US 'state' schools is appallingly awful. You have NO IDEA how good your kids are, here, at least in class (I think they misbehave more out of school, here, but at a lower level of violence than US kids...). Also, parents have less right of appeal over there compared to in most of UK, and at same time much less is discretionary. The school headmaster ("principal" will have very clear written guidelines/protocals to decide which behaviors merit suspension, detention or expulsion. California has special schools (forget the name) for troubled students that have been excluded from any normal schools. The big thing that is striking me from reading this thread is that UK parents have vastly more rights and power in state-funded education than California parents do. Perhaps schools in USA are not as responsive or accountable to parents.

The whole holiday thing will never be an issue Stateside because most people have so little holiday entitlement, anyway.

I don't think I could read or write before I started school, either.... Guess you & me are just the thickies of the class, eh, M2T?

lol Zebra - We must be!
And I'm pretty sure it was between the age of 4 and 11 that you learn to:

Multiply
Subtract
Divide etc

Tell the time

Spell bigger words and write with 'joined-up' writing

Count money and work out change

Read music

And loads more..... thats what I remember from Primary School.

Jan - school may be less flexible now (I'm sorry to say), but I don't think that we grew up thinking that school was flexible and therefore it was OK to miss bits.

I think part of the problem is that attitudes to authority have changed a lot, even since I was at school. My parents would simply not have dreamed of taking me out of school for a holiday and I knew that very well. Now everyone is much more aware of their choices/rights etc and - I think - more likely to push for their own wishes (the concept of "parental choice" over which school kid goes to being one example of this, but I won't go there now).

I am acutely aware of this attitude change mostly because in Spain it doesn't exist. In education as in hospitals the attitude to authority is as it was in the UK 20 years ago. I prefer the situation in the UK, but it does cause problems - most notably the fact that people seem to be more ready to accept their rights than their responsibilities. This fine business is the latest in a long line of mostly misguided attempts to address those. I really don't think this one is completely misguided as it is at least creating a general awareness of the problem.

PS a good illustration of what I am trying to say about attitudes was that programme with GCSE kids going to a 50s school. The discipline didn't work as well as it would have done in the 50s because each kid knew damn well that the punishment would end at the school - in the real 50s kids would have had to face the wrath of their parents too, but I imagine most of the parents would have found some of the misbehaviour funny.

There is a lot of repetition in primary school, too, M2T; I am sure we got long-division at least 3 times -- only bit of maths I struggled with, in spite of the repeats!. The Home Educators always point out how much time gets wasted in schools and how Home-Schooling can cover the same curriculum in a small fraction of the time. But I think at secondary level, which is what a lot of the teachers were posting about last night, missing a week or two of lessons really starts to hurt.

This thread reminds me of the speed limits argument; some people sincerely believe limits should be raised, and what they really mean is, "I can safely drive faster, so why shouldn't I?" Some people sincerely believe "I can make sure my child isn't harmed academically by missing a few weeks in term time, so why should I be penalised?" Problem is, how do you make rules that are consistent & fair to all, unless you go to the Libretarian argument and just abolish all the rules for everybody, even thought it's the child who may be suffering for the parents' misjudgement!

I am not a primary teacher (secondary ICT infact) but I do think that there is probably less repition at primary schools now what with the National Curriculum and th literacy and numeracy programmes. All teachers know what they have to teach and when so repetition of skills is less likely, although revision of skills to ensure clear undersatnding and practise of skills is still going to happen obviously.

True, Hulababy -- I'm thinking back 25 years ago! But also, I think it must be easier for caring parents to help a child catch up with primary school work than secondary work. Just a lot more material DH & I wouldn't know for sure at secondary level. How rusty are most of you with your algebra, history of the Civil War or frog anatomy?

I do agree here and hope primary school teachers don't feel I am going against them. It must be easier for parents to help children catch up with missed work at this level. I teach a subject with 60% of the GCSE mark coming from coursework and about 80% at GNVQ level. A week or two missed then is pretty crucuial and it is hard to catch up at home as pupils need the hardware/software, and it is supposed to be supervised by the teacher (i.e me) to ensure it is all their own work - obviously important with ICT as it is hard to detect copied work when typed up. And marks come from observed work - I fill in sheets to say I have seen them do it. In order to catch up this type of work means that I do hve to give up my time - lunch, break, after school, whatever - to do this.

Zebra, I'm sure you'll be pleased to read that there is very little frog anatomy in the GCSE Double Science Curriculum!

Re beetroot's comments. Yup, I do agree that they are your kids and I do think that you have the right to take them out of school whenever you want. And with that comes the responsibility to make sure that you get them to catch up any work that they miss. And I am 100% sure that as a good parent you do this (not a snide comment, an honest observation). The trouble is that many, many parents don't check that their kids have caught up, and many of these will then go on to bollock the teacher if their kids fail their GCSEs or does badly in SATs etc. You have the right to take them out when ever you want, and then the responsibility for their education becomes yours and not the schools.

And has many other teachers have pointed out the current syllabus is such that the lessons are structured so that one lesson follows on from the next, so that far from missing 'only' 2 weeks, the kids end up falling further and further behind.

Oh, and I learned to read fbefore I went to school and so did dd (smug grin). But I still managed to be taught a hell of a lot in primary school! Funny that!!

I did, actually, particularly dislike the frog disection bit in biology class. Give me some calculus instead, or a long long essay to write, any day!!

I never dissected anything in biology, zebra, right up to age 16 and that was in the 60s. I was amazed when I saw ET that Elliott's class (how old were they? 10?) were going to kill and dissect frogs!

I think I was 15 or 16 when we did an earthworm & a frog one week. I coped ok with earthworm, but frog was too much!!

Well I haven't read all this thread, but I am going to take my oldest DD out of school for a week in Feb!! My point was that she will have only just started primary school (on Monday ) and she can already do more than some of her friends. It took a lot of soul searching, but DH has had hardly anytime except Xmas day to spend with them, so we are going for it!!

Hope she settles in well, Crunchie. It is a bit sad when your first one starts school... Are you taking the week before half-term?

Th eonly dissection that they do these days are of the pigs hear, kidney and lungs. All of these are bought at the butcher's shop and have to be 'food grad' (not sure about the lungs) We can't do the eye any more because of the H & S issues post BSE. No child is ever made to do a dissection and I always set up a virtual dissection on the computer in a side room for those that opt out.

Re catching up in the secondary school, I thought it might be helpful to know what my year 10s would miss in the next two weeks. This is for Biology only, they would miss a similar amount for Physics.

Lesson 1 Review of DNA structure and the finction of the Gene. What is a mutation, what causes mutations, what is a carcinogen and what is cancer? How can mutagens be avoided? A predict , observe, explain exercise on the effects of Chernobyl on local rates of cancer for homework.

Lesson 2 How do you geneticaly modify plants and animals (they need to understand the enzymes involved and the stages). Understand that crop plants can by GM and why this is done. We will then debate the potential benefits and ethical dilemmas involved with GM. Extended home work (a week to do it) esearch the topic and write a pro and anti argument for GM crops.

Lesson 3 Adaptaion to the environment. Understand how adaptaions such as hair lenth, gills, root systems etc can help to increase the liklihood of survival in specific circumstances. They will carry out a mini practical that looks at survival and adaptation based on colour. They will then use the data they produce, pool it, and analyse it as a class. Plotting the rsults and a write up, evaluating fair test etc.

Lesson 4 Populations. Describe how competition between individulas controls population size. Describe how populations of predetor/prey are dependent on each other. Recall that inc population size leasds to inc pollution (in humans) They will watch a video on the arctic hare and do some role play looking at population flux. Draw food webs/chains. Homework on the effect of human population growth in a rural area.

The next 2 lessons grow directsly out of these and are on Evolution and artificial selection.

It will take a lot for the kids to catch this up. I have one 'free' lesson to help them with revision before they go on to do a medular examination. In case anyone thinks that I am picking 'heavy' lessons , have a look on the Edexcel website. These are from Module 2 (which is missing) but have a look at what is covered in each lesson in module 1 and 7 (both Biology)

Understand that this isn't a teacher whinge about the pressure of work. I love to teach this stuff, it is one of by 'best' areas. And it is true that some of the kids could learn this on their own. The class I'm doing this with are very bright. There are 5 kids in the class who could learn this on their own if you gave them a text book. But the rest (23) will need my help for at least part of this.

And if a primary teacher gave you what the kids would miss for two weeks , it would probably crash the server! Remember that this is 4 lessons worth of missed information for one subject only. If the kids miss two weeks they would miss 40 lessons! Now some would be PE (valuable, essential, but not so much book work). But the rest would give them a similar level of missed work.

Aloha, just because you personally dislike something - you cite P.E as 'hell'- does not mean it is a bad thing. Is exercise inherently bad?.Half the kids at school get no other exercise at all apart from what is offered during school time. And since there is currently a crisis in childhood obesity,it seems to me that compulsory PE is a pretty good idea. Many subjects, such as Geography ( which you also mention)will never be touched once the child has left the education system so can you not see that it is a good thing to make these subjects available to them? don't we want our children to have access to as many different subjects as possible? do we not want them to appreciate range and variety? it is sad that your own school days were so awful for you but it will be even sadder if you deliberately pass on your prejudices to your own child.And as for these weird 'stickers'you mention - I am sure no teacher reading this thread knows what on earth you are talking about!

i think any sane parent would not say that edumication is unimportant. and i think people should get out of the holidays v's edumication debate and concentrate more on how the govt has set parents at teachers throats and vis versa.

whilst there are good parents here and bad parents here there are also good and bad teachers, good and bad schools. we all have good and bad experiences. to counter act many arguments i could cite instances where my son has suffered at the hands of a teachers ineptness and the schools useless policies.

however lets not go into that - becuase we are all missing the point.

the govt is to blame - write to them and ask them to reduce holiday prices.

my holiday for 5 people doubles in august. i really do not think i am missing the point by being infuriated at the prices. - let capitalism prevail - for goodness sake do not upset the travel industry - pick on the parents - or the teachers - the easy targets. they wont ome asking for anyones head becuase they will be too busy fighting with each other.

suedonim - your nanny state comments were pure genius.

does any one think the travel industry are corect to double prices in school holidays?

wow - holidays for the rich on top of edumication for the rich, a health service for the rich and pensions for the rich

shame on labour. f*cking shame

Custardo, Did you know that in some Scandinavian countries parents have a right to a holiday duing the school holidays? If they can't have a holiday them, their employer is bound (by law) to compensate them. Not the sort of intervention you have mentioned, but it shows what some governments do about this problem.