4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

[AmberLeaf]

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

There is a lot of xenophobic innuendo here, the unstated implication being that it would be wrong to let children be return to Italy, as if it is some kind of barbarous third world hole

Really? I think people are saying that because that is where they are returning to! if it were England they would say 'it would be wrong to return them to England'

Didn't the judge say he didn't think the father was being entirely truthful? but that he had to order their return because the law said so [or words to that effect]

Italy is a lovely place, I'd love to live there tbh. But I wouldn't want to be forced back there. Nothing 'racist' about saying that.

domesticgodless, I've followed the case since the mother hid the children in May, and the father has repeatedly visited Australia over the past 2 years despite the mum's efforts to get him arrested (say something about which parent has more love the their children than fear of arrest), offered to split custody between Australia and Italy, offered to pay for the mum's ticket to Italy, was finally able to obtain unsupervised visitation in Australia this past summer (after having been denied access) and is now posting pictures on his FB page (thank you for the link, Skippy) from those visits, and he even dropped criminal charges against the mum.
And, yes, two years of alienating your kids from the other parent is plenty of time for evil poison to do its damage. My ex was able to do this in far less time, and was the reason the court gave me custody. Most courts do. In fact, the Australia courts previously took the kids away from the mum and put them into home. It came out at the trial last week that the elder daughter threatened suicide because her mum told her it would get her out.

I do wonder if this thread would be the same if it had been the father who had abducted the children?

I think the key part of the judgement was that the girls did not want to return to their father because of pressure including a high profile publicity campaign by the mother and her family. It is hard for a court to take their view into account when it may have been manipulated.

These girls have been with the mother for the last 2 years, you can convince a child of a lot in that time.

Ultimately, as others have said, she kidnapped them and the law has to treat mothers who do this just as we all hope it will treat fathers who do it. The children are the real victims.

DHs eldest has basically never spoken to him since the day he left her mother - because her mother told her to chose - so she chose.

Up until that point - they had had an excellent relationship - and she was effectively an adult.

And he left because the mother was having an affair (just to clarify), a clever person can achieve parental alienation very very quickly.

She kidnapped them.

Amberleaf, when you write, "I think its very telling that the older girls are so against returning to their father" you are absolutely correct. But you draw the wrong conclusion.
Younger children are harder to manipulate because they have not yet reached a point where they understand what the alienating parent is telling them to break their affection and emotional bonds.
The children have an extended family in Italy. They speak Italian. They were all born and grew up there. They will be back in school and happy in days, and this whole thing will be behind them.
Let's revisit in one month whether the mother is lying about being afraid of being arrested. My bet is she will be in Italy by then herself.

I think that as Amber says this is probably a man concerned to 'win' above all.

Really? And if your DH/Ex took your kids and vanished to the opposite side of the world....literally. Then you'd just say "oh well. It's obviously better there for them."

Of course he wants to "win". Because he wants to see his children!

I'm actually quite incredulous at some of the responses here painting this as a wrong decision.

The facts are quite simple. Mum knowingly removed the kids from their home country without permission of their father. That's not in dispute. Whether or not the Australian embassy helped is irrelevant and if true was totally wrong of them.

To allow her to stay just because the kids now want to after two years is missing the point. The courts cannot let themselves be bound by a fait accompli. If they did then many many more children are now in danger.

For example I could just take my kids tomorrow to my home country, duck & dive for a couple of years and then my ex would be screwed. That's fair yes?

We're talking Italy here, not some backwater 3rd world hellhole.

the FB page supporting the father (4 Hidden Sisters) is excellent! there are consistent warnings not to be mean to the mother or her family, to be respectful of the mother and her family.
by contrast, the FB page supporting the mother is full of venom. the total opposite.
says a lot about these two.

Niceguy agree again

niceguy2, I agree with you but also think that in Iraq or Pakistan there are parents who love their children and who should not be removed from their lives.

many of this "shocked" comments make me want to point out that there is nothing unusual about this case other than the mother's all-out media war against the father, which was plainly not reciprocated. you can't fault the father for refusing to defend himself when it would mean criticising the children's mother in public. that seems laudable to me.

NOTHING else about this case, or the images shown since yesterday, is unusual. it happens ALL THE TIME. authorities take children away from a parent when the courts order and the parent does not comply. happened here. children do not want to be separated from their mum. happened here. mums and dads kidnap children to foreign countries. happened here. courts take too long to resolve the situation. happened here.

I could write reams about the effects of parental alienation - but I can't be arsed - it's a pervasive form of emotional child abuse and is massively damaging on children of all ages - I know full grown adults who can't cope with the vitriol one parent (and usually mum) - it harms them in ways that cannot be seen.

Sneaking these children put of Italy and hiding them - running away, putting the fear of god into them - telling them you won't come to see them and splashing it all over the papers.

Even the fact she knew this was coming and is a student - when she could have been working and saving to go and see them.

None of these things strike me as a mother doing her best for her children.

Dragging them away like that was wrong, wrong, wrong but so was removing them in the first place.

I find it unlikely a whole Italian village is full of child abusers - med families as a rule are extended, loving and adore their children - just like out families.

skippy what bull no one has made any such claims about Italy.
A fe of us has said its a very patriarchal society, a fact.
The reason I think it's very wrong is nothing to do with Italy but of the reactions of the girls being returned. If anything I'm more disgusted with the Austrialian authorities for helping them return to Austrillia and the way they man handled and abused those young girls.

I would think exactly the same if the girls had been dragged screaming by police officers from their father - that these children's human rights had been trashed completely.

Is Australia not a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights if the Child? If not why not?

Do the Australian police always carry guns when dealing with children? What if they are interviewing child victims?

redsilk WTF they will be happy in DAYS?! Seriously you honestly think they will touch down in Italy and sat " wow this is amazing I never want to leave...."
Are you crazy? You really think all this won't leave a mental scar?

Some brutal, heartless views here. You don't know the facts, so don't judge the mother. You don't know what led her to take her children away to Australia and decide not to go back. What you do know is that she has lost a child, and now has lost her four living daughters - do none of you feel a shred of sympathy for her? Actually, don't answer that. It's depressing how cold and unfeeling some of you are. Instead you berate her for sobbing and crying at losing her children!

The older girls actually stated that they felt suicidal at the though of going back to Italy. The father should be utterly ashamed of himself and what he has done. No loving father would act this way, and when he sees the distress he has caused his children he should return them to their mother. This is not about her 'winning', it's about what is best for these poor girls, and they have clearly stated they want to remain with their mother.

Disgusted but not surprised by the lack of empathy on this thread. Fuck the law. These girls need to stay with their mother.

Iwant I assume the father also lost a child. Then the mother took the others away under false pretenses. That's where my sympathies lie (and the mother has plenty to be ashamed of) - oh, and with the children of these parents.

little that's rubbish - there are plenty of comments on this thread about Italy/Italian village way of life.

Iwant I don't have a great deal of sympathy because I think she is not helping herself and more importantly her children - what mother would publicly tell them she won't be following them? That's where I lose mine.

Here's a quote from the father's solicitor.

'The father's solicitor Paul Donnelly says the court decision will have ramifications for many other parents.

"The real point to be made in this is that in Australia, we must remember that the ratio of children leaving Australia is five to two," he said.

"Five Australian children are taken overseas compared to two children that are brought into Australia.

"So Australia's got a vested interest in ensuring these Hague conventions are complied with, otherwise we won't get our own children back."

LittleBairn, I think the whole mishugenas will give them scars, but no, not this particular event.
Do you have kids of your own? they throw tantrums, they live experiences they don't like. they don't get what they want, and they cry and scream. and then life goes on.
over the next two years these girls will spend time with both their parents. They will realise their mum was lying about not coming to Italy to see them, and they will forgive her because she is their mum. They will be glad to have this behind them.
But when they are adults, I think there is a risk the scars will come out. they will feel angry at having been manipulated, for having been against their father, and when that happens there is a change they will never want to see their mother again.

that's rubbish - there are plenty of comments on this thread about Italy/Italian village way of life

Yes. Your point is?

peachcookie dear, take a few pills and chill. read the articles about the psych report. the older girl did not feel suicidal. she told the psych that she just said that because her mum to do it to get out of a foster home. it's in all the reports about the hearing. the mother is trash, and her family too. the more you read about the case, the more the picture emerges.

telling her daughters she would not come to Italy is what is disgusting. especially since she's lying about it too. mark my words.

'A lot more men abduct children than women.'

In a 2008 report 69% of international abductions were by the mother.

charonqc.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/guest-law-review-parental-child-abduction/

Did someone here seriously say that Italy is a patriarchical society? the land of pizza and mamma? hah!
here, I found these statistics in English about Italian custody cases (doing the math it says that fathers get sole custody in only 1.6% of cases):
www.istat.it/en/archive/32717
"Until 2005, sole custody of minors was mainly awarded to the mother. In 2006 Law 54/2006 introduced the provision of joint custody of minor children as an ordinary procedure and had very clear consequences both for separations and divorces. In 2009, 86.2% of separations with children were with joint custody, as opposed to 12.2% in which custody of the children was awarded exclusively to the mother."
the mum doesn't have much to worry about if she returns to Italy.