4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

[AmberLeaf]

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

I don't particular believe one of them over the other.

Have no special information, only what is reported in the media and therefore it is all pretty suspect.

My only interest in this case/thread is that the Hague convention was upheld, even though that meant dragging them kicking and screaming onto the plane.

Unfortunate, but the parents could have avoided it.

The truth will be somewhere in the middle, it always is.

I think the onus would be on the Italian government to take care of any Italian child an Italian parent kicked out in Italy.

Honestly? If I were the Dad here I would be saying to the girls: 'look, stay here for a couple of months, lets see how this goes, we can talk about you moving to Australia and getting back into school etc' and then trying my very best to give them want they want within the framework of what they need.

Couldn't care less if people don't want to come to Australia because of it or that we are like the Americans (like that is some sort of insult). The right thing was done, it wasn't popular and it wasn't pretty, but it was right.

segue

And that surprises you why? She did talk to them & the incident at the house gates happened. Look at the state the girls were after that! All contact with their mother does is wind them up & reduce them screaming tantruming kids. Thus unsettling the calm that dad is trying to restore.

I read that he will let them resume contact when the mother promises to stop trying to cause more trouble/wind them up!

Denying a mother and her children the right to communicate is controlling But it was OK for him to do it to her? Perhaps some might say that she should feel a little of dad has been going through these last 2 yrs.

I had a comment removed from her fb page today. Someone wrote NO FATHER/PARENT THAT LOVES THEIR CHILDREN THAT MUCH DO WHT HE DID, RIPPING THOSE GIRLS FROM THEIR MOTHER

I replied

You are missing the point that the mother ripped them from their father! So by your own theory, she doesn't love them either

And they removed it. Double standards all over this case!

And of course they shouted out help help, because they have been brainwashed to think they aren't safe.

Couldn't care less if people don't want to come to Australia because of it or that we are like the Americans (like that is some sort of insult). The right thing was done, it wasn't popular and it wasn't pretty, but it was right

Here here, morloth!

The truth will be somewhere in the middle, it always is

I agree Morloth.

I think the onus would be on the Italian government to take care of any Italian child an Italian parent kicked out in Italy

Yes, I would hope so. It would be horrible to think of a child stranded in any country without the means to get back. I'd be really interested to hear if that was enshrined in law though. I suppose the consulates could/would help?

I presume that a 16 year old (and certainly an 18 year old) who was an Australian citizen as these kids are could go to the embassy for help.

I hope that the parents can get to the stage that they can sit down with the older two at least and discuss what should happen next. But I do believe the father should have a chance to have some time with them without the interference of the mother before that, to give him a chance to put right some of the lies she appears to have been telling them (about her not being able to return to Italy for example, and her being put in jail).

If he turns out to be abusive, then they can say that in court in due course.

The case is more difficult for the younger two - I think it is much harder to agree that children of under, say, about 12, should have too much say in where they live. Or else you do have real problems with parents vying with each other for their children's support, which is incredibly unfair on the children.

I presume that a 16 year old (and certainly an 18 year old) who was an Australian citizen as these kids are could go to the embassy for help

Yes I hope so - and I suppose if the Australian embassy said no, then as they have dual citizenship they could approach the Italian embassy. Mind you, like Xenia said, this case has had so much publicity I reckon it would be quite easy to raise funds if needed.

I think the parents sitting down together is probably a long way off, but yes, it would certainly be the way ahead. As long as there was no abuse then it would certainly be the civilized way to act. So much hate on both sides

It's not straighforward is it? I'm sure this case is going to make some lawyers an awful lot of money...

segue
"The father has not let his daughters talk to their mother since they arrived in Italy.

Denying a mother and her children the right to communicate is controlling."

And denying the father is?

LtEveDallas
Sorry just pointing out an error, no offense meant :)

What I know for sure about the case.

The mother took the children on a holiday and didn't come back.
The father has fought in court for two years to get the children back.
The mother when told by the court that she should return the children took them into hiding.
The court was "upset" (my word) at the attitude of the mother and family.
The court was forced to remove the children from the mother.
The court is "uncertain" (my word) about certain aspects of the father's version.
The mother has played the press for sometime.
The press turned up at an unpublished address and the girls ran to the press and made a scene.

The rest not so sure.

The video on the DM site is horrible to watch.

Whatever the failures of the parents (I have no idea) it's shocking that the system can result in children being subjected to such an upsetting experience.

ANy trauma caused to the girls was caused by the mother stealing them in bnreach of the law and thinking law favours child stealers and always favours mothers. If this stops even one family being riven asunder and ensures people respect the Hague Convention more it will be all to the good.

Even better woudl be if we could all lobby to ensure child contact hearings take place within 7 days not the usually sort of 3 - 6 months you get in the UK for UK cases (or 2 years as in this case) which is just not acceptable where children are concerned who bond and establish routines. The delay ensures that often the infringer, th eparent who broke all rules in effect is condoned.

I'm just saying I think I can see why she abducted her children in the first place. The father seems very controlling. Most people would condone abduction in genuine abuse cases. Is subjugation an abuse? It's a grey area.

I'm guessing the women fell out of love with her husband, possibly because of his controlling nature. She expected the marriage to be an equal partnership, as all women do. She, and her daughters, would have been pretty much under the thumb in her extended catholic, conservative household. It's not much of a life for an independently minded Australian women.

Women can sense when they're not genuinely respected. Marriages can survive a lot of things, but not that.

I'm not sure what she actually does for a living, I know she's a student but that's about it. What she did was desperate. How easy would it be for any of you to break the law? It's not something you'd do unless your back was against the wall.

She faced the prospect of life with a controlling man whom she no longer loved, in Italy, and being permanently reliant on him for support. I'm pretty sure if a custody case was heard in Italy both of them would get shared custody at least, but what does she live on? Is she skilled enough to survive in Italy on her own?

His saying that he will "allow" contact between mother and daughters again once they've "settled down" makes me angry. What's his view of settled down? Once they've lost the will to fight?

segue

seems controlling
possible because of his controlling behaviour
pretty much under the thumb
She faced the prospect of life with a controlling man
permanently reliant on him for support

All hearsay & none of it proved. What IS proved is that the mother has damaged her 4 girls in order to prevent them seeing their father as someone they can trust.

She wanted him to relocate to Oz too, so they could continue to share custody. If he were that bad, would she REALLY do that? That was her first suggestion. He said he didn't want to relocate, so she suggested she did so with the girls, he objected & then she started (in her words) to slowly coax him into the idea of her taking them on holiday (all the while she knew it was NOT just to be a holiday). When she had convinced him enough, he sighed the passport applications & she started her stories of abuse with the Embassy to get out of there. The only person who knew she was leaving for good, was her. She gave the girls no choice as to what they wanted then, she didn't listen to reports they made that stated they would happily go home if she did, that they missed their father, that one missed her home & the stuff she used to do with dad.

She lied to the court too, saying that dad knew it was a permanent relocation. If he DID know it was permanent relocation, why did she get embassy officials to change the flights "in case he turned up at the airport & caused problems" (what problem would he have? He was under the impression they were going on holiday, with his approval, why would he create at the airport in that case? There was nothing to create about) . More like in case he found out about her plan to permanently relocate & tried to stop it. She has schemed & planned from the beginning!

Yet, all of the above statements you have made, paint dad as the bad guy. None of what you have written is known fact, it is all hearsay from her (with no evidence to back it up - i.e no reports from friends in Italy, or police/court reports to attest to his unsuitability to be a co-parent)

Is she skilled enough to survive in Italy on her own? She worked as a teacher in Australia, teaching Italian. Could she not work as teacher in Italy, teaching English?

His saying that he will "allow" contact between mother and daughters again once they've "settled down" makes me angry. What's his view of settled down? Once they've lost the will to fight?

Would you be any less angry if the roles were reversed & it was dad ringing the girls up & making them act crazy? He wants MUM to calm down, not the girls, because it is MUM who was winding them up constantly, told the press where to find them, told the girls the press were on their way there. We all want the girls to calm down, how can they do that if their mother is playing them like that!

Fuck me segue there's some Olympic standard leaps in your post. Sadly they say much more about you than the actual issue at hand. Obviously you have some issues maybe counselling would help. Or getting a grip and sticking to facts.

www.kidswithoutvoices.com.au/press-release/

I feel Laura Garrett will never see her daughters again and why I say this my cousin who lives in England married a girl from Italy in England they had a son when the lad was about six they divorced they both had custody of the lad but she returned to Italy with their son which my cousin did not know about, but Italy again sided with mother in the courts but now years later my cousin and his adult son live in England.So this is how it may be for Laura Garrett but I did find it odd that Tommaso Vincenti is still wearing a wedding ring?????

She will see them if she goes back to Italy & calms down. There is NO need for her behaviour. Lawyers have already hinted at supervised visits for her.

She will see them because she's lying about not going back to Italy and, Italy being Italy, they will treat her, a mother, better than the courts in Oz that would have taken the children away from her.

And also the father risks losing custody if he prevents her from seeing them. He doesn't have sole custody. And even if he gets sole custody he will still have to allow for visitation.

This is Italy, not Saudi or Russia or Japan where a parent can just do whatever they want.

Redsilk there is always his and her side of the story, as for Laura living in Italy to see her children is very remote already in the courier mail it was said in Italy she may or may not face criminal charges so that most likely is a yes and the risk would be to much for her to take. The only way these pair are going to have a 100% sort out problem would be to stay together until the last daughter leaves home and then go their own way which is big thing and who know they may put their past behind them and move on for the daughters sake.

Well even if she does get charged, I have no sympathy. But as a mother, it think she should chance it. If she took them because she feared for their lives, then the courts will take that into account.

She is being very selfish.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to face child abduction charges, if you have in fact abducted children.

"the risk would be to much for her to take" - you mean, the risk of facing charges and possibly probation is too high for her to go to Italy to see her children?

If I was her I would have been on the next plane. But then, I wouldn't have threatened them with never seeing me again either. Of course she can go to Italy. She can go and face charges, and see her children (supervised until she can be trusted not to tell them lies, flee with them or encourage them to become hysterical).

It's sad that she is still saying she won't.

By the way, for anyone who is interested, this is the full Court Report

I haven't read it all, but the section in the middle (around the 25 to 30 mark) with the judges opinions on how the children had been encouraged to behave if they were to be sent back is pretty shocking.

In fact, the judge's opinion of the mother's actions is very poor throughout. It is written in legal terms, but reading between the lines he seems to be saying "ffs, can she not just grow up and act like an adult".

She - in my opinion, thought she could bugger off to Australia and it would be too difficult for him to get them back.

Her actions are/were
Shameful and telling them she won't come to see then is the most shameful of all.

There is a woman on This Morning whose husband took her children to Pakistan and didn't return them for ten years.

This is why we need Hague, and we should all support it's enforcement.

We certainly do and I don't even agree with the comment that if ther e is abuse ignore Hague. First abuse is a word bandied about by lots of people when it is not abuse at all. Secondly whilst I accept the courts are not perfect she could have challenged in Italy his actions against the girls if he felt it was abusive.

What comes out of this really well is Australia and Italy - following the law and the law working. I hope it ensures those who want to move their children abroad go to court (or agree with the parent) first. I remember the Sian Jenkins case - the mother there took the children to live in NZ from the UK for a fresh start. Even that felt a bit unfair to me but I think the father agreed or the courts did.

differentnameforthis:

Why is my assumption less valid than anyone else's here? We're all making assumptions. My assumption is that the father is controlling. My view is "hearsay" whereas your assumption that the mother "damaged" the girls is proof? Where is your proof?

I don't know why everyone keeps referring to the Hague convention with such reverence. Nothing is set in stone. Legislators are continually tinkering with the finer details and I'd be surprised if after all this there won't be some changes. I feel the question of abuse should have been tried in an Australian court and that the girls should have been questioned by trained professionals over a considerable length of time before being deported to Italy.

I don't believe that the father is a violent man and I'm not naive enough to believe that the mother didn't coach her girls to a certain extent. But demonising the mother to the extent that most of you are doing doesn't indicate fair-mindedness to me.

If the husband was controlling to such an extent that the marriage was no longer viable then yes, that needs to be determined in a court of law. But one parent is Italian, the other Australian - which means one parent is going to suffer horribly if they both stay put. I can understand the mother's actions, particularly if she felt that the marriage failed because of a basic lack of respect. None of the options looked good for her.

The proof is the court judgement, segue.

The girls were talked to at great length in Australia, over a period of two years.

Read the judgement I have linked to a couple of posts up. There is no doubt that the court's view was that the mother was manipulating the girls.

I tend to believe the judge. And that isn't demonising the mother (though it's obvious his opinion of her isn't very good).