4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

[AmberLeaf]

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

All I'm asking is for someone to give an alternative legal way of managing it. There's a bit of x-posting here I think, but Lady I do agree that tailoring the circumstances is obviously a good idea, but it has to be decided somewhere. Some court in some country has to have jurisdiction over custody cases.

I'm not saying this way is perfect. I've said a number of times it's the least worst option.

But the alternative is a free-for-all - whichever parent can manage to get their children to their country first.

I just can't see that working either.

MaryZed - the Hague Convention does not prevent entirely legal premeditated kidnapping of children, sadly.

The thing is that legal alternative doesn't exist yet.
As you have said, the Hague convention is already a huge step forward. But it was done at a time when people were not moving as easily as people do now. Hence it needs to be reviewed.

whichever parent can manage to get their children to their country first.

As far as I know, this is happening anyway.

We certainly need more countries to adopt it (look at the Reunite site I mention above which is helpful). Obviously if someone has married a foreigner or a nasty piece of work who is your nationality but talked about or is likely to "steal" the children then you should take precautions. Plenty of parents take chidlren to non hague convention countries. I think the Japanese case I mentioned above the parent had managed to get new alternative additional passports from the Japanese embassy in London for her pre meditated snatch. She cut off all contact even by phone once she had forced her husband in Scotland to transfer half their UK house value to her - he spunt that out over 21 years so that the calls would continue. Presumably he will not see the chilren now for 16 years and they will forget all their English.

The older children are the easier it is to keep in touch with them.

"whichever parent can manage to get their children to their country first.

As far as I know, this is happening anyway."

Exactly.

LtEveDallas
"Same as my abuser isn't this abuser."

I'm sorry but so much for not passing judgement.

Thankyou Boneyback, I appreciate it Of course, in case anyone else wants to pick up that single part of my whole post, that was a typo on my part and should have read 'this man'. Perils of typing whilst I should be working! Very annoying

It would appear the our courts were bound by the Hague convention but I'm surprised at the level of hate towards the mother. Australians should get a copy of yesterday's Courier Mail and read the father's comments. He sounds very controlling and this could be a factor in all of this. I'm not saying this alone is an excuse for the mother abducting her children, but just adds another dimension to this debate. I would be embarrassed to be the father. If my own children were clearly distressed by having to return to me I would be questioning my parenting and whether I was doing the right thing in forcing them to live with me. The children's anguish was very real and it's laughable to suggest this is "brainwashing". Custody needs to be determined in an Italian court but the problem is, the mother can't return to Italy as she could be arrested. The father has no say in this by the way as the court makes its own decisions. Maybe if the court could offer a guarantee that the mother would not be charged then that would clear the way for her to fight for custody.

LtEve, I think that essentially I am agreeing with you on most of this.

I don't hate the mother - I can sympathise with her, but that doesn't make what she did right.

I find the accusations of abuse without proof difficult as dh has two friends who have effectively lost their children due to accusations of abuse. Of course, I didn't live with them, so I can't know for sure, but before their partners (both of them did the same thing) had affairs and moved the new b/f's in, there had been no accusations of abuse and the children went happily to their father's houses. Then suddenly, abuse was cited, and the children were (imo) brainwashed.

For many fathers there is no defence to "he is abusive" as there is no way they can categorically prove they aren't.

I think we all take our own experiences into a thread like this - I can see how devastated the father would be to have his children go on holiday for a month and not come back. Others on the thread have escaped abuse and would do anything (illegal if necessary) to not go back.

The problem is that the law in this (as in anything to be honest) is a blunt instrument.

I think life with Hague is better than the prospect of life without it, but sadly no matter what the law is, while there are parents who put their own wants above their children's needs, the blunt instrument that is the law has to be applied in some way.

I recognises that this is a pompous post, but doesn't want anyone to think I don't at least try to understand where they are coming from. Splitting up families can be shit .

And I think LtE didn't read my earlier posts or digest them

Some people aren't reading anything that doesn't condemn the father, red!

LadyInDisguise each case is judge on it's own merits. But why would it be OK for the mother to move children 10k away from their father? Or vice versa?

And why is it always the men who cheat, women do have affairs, you know, how would your scenario change if it were the mother having the affair? Does she still have the right to haul them across the world?

And the case in question isn't really comparable, seeing as the girls ONLY ever place of residence was Italy, that they couldn't even speak English when they left! You can't compare the two.

I lived in the UK for 30 odd yrs. In my teens I met my dh who was from here. He stayed in the UK with me for almost 15yrs after we met & during that time we married, had one child. Then we moved here & had another. So, one Aus citizen, one not. Now, if he did anything or if I did anything (note I am not putting the blame entirely on him) & we ended the marriage, he would be back in the UK like a shot. So would I. No matter how much I hated him or he hated me I would want my children to see their father on a regular basis without having to time plan phone calls, or make major cross Atlantic flights to do. That would only ever harm my children, if they were over 12 thousand miles away from their father.

The girls would find new friends (hell, I moved at the ripe old age of 30 something & I made new friends) I would too. I would find a job... something, anything if I had to. (I mean, I am not bilingual & I haven't taught my second language in a school for a yr or so) But I would find something, anything. As long as my children were happy.

If it came to pass that they wanted to live with their dad, I would be beyond devastated, but once again, I would make sure I was available. I certainly would not turn them against their father & I knew he wouldn't do that to me either, because we love our children too much to shatter their world completely & so awfully. They aren't game pieces either!

The mum didn't take their wishes into account when she abducted them from Italy, nor last year when they said they would happily return (to Italy & their father & his family) if she was there too. In other words, they obv understood that their parents wouldn't be together, but they wanted to be able to see them both. The mother denied them that.

Yet according to some here & the world over, the motehr should have more rights than the father.

You can't prove there is no abuse No you can't, you're right. But lack of proof that it didn't happen, doesn't mean it happened. BUT, you can wonder as to why she never reported any said abuse in Italy. You can wonder why it never came up until she wanted to leave Italy. You can wonder as to why the judge would return the children to an abusive father. You can wonder based on so much of the other lies that the motehr has knowingly told.

Being born in a country doesn't make you a citizen of that country as such My daughter was born here, therefore she is an Australian Citizen. So yes, being born someone does make you a citizen, unless all the people I have spoken to (wrt obtaining the best passport for her) have lied about her being a citizen. She has duel citizenship, due to having 2 British parents.

Mary, the mother and all the children are also australian though. Aren't they By descent, yes. Like my daughter is British by descent. But she has lived here all her life, so I think she is pretty much more Australian than she is British. Same for my 9yr who came here when she was 3.

being born somewhere can

Lady, this is not a case of expats living in a third country.

LtE, I give up with you. I was referring to the latest reports of the daughters running out and speaking with the press in Italy, disobeying the father's demand that they come back inside. But hear what you want and give everyone the benefit of the doubt, even a parent who kidnapped her own children, disobeyed an Australian court order, had her children placed in a foster home in her home country, told her daughter to say she was suicidal to get out of the home, repeatedly threw her daughters into the media spotlight, lied to them about not coming to Italy to be with them, called the father's religion (Catholicism) a "sect", gave the father's address to the media....

I'm sure I'm leaving out a lot of her other magnificent parenting credentials

Sure, let's be magnanimous and not be judgmental.

And she's not only similar to our abuser, she's similar to many abusers, which is why it's easy to predict her next steps.

When I was growing up I knew two daughters who had been virtually kidnapped by their own father. Having manoeuvred their mother out of his and their life, he then moved country with his daughters. Frankly, the girls were miserable and traumatised. It was all very tragic

If some on this thread had their way, this is exactly what would be happening now, only reversed roles for mum/dad!

segue the courier mail are among the media that went out & ambushed the father & the girls. I would take their reports with a huge pinch of salt, if I were you! He didn't force them to return. Mum could have returned the peacefully last year, when they said they wanted to go back. How do you explain that? They were happy to go back in May 2011. Yet now, after a yr in hiding, they don't want to go back? In that time, when their father couldn't see/talk to them, how do you suggest they came to hate him SO much, if not for brainwashing? The court document linked to say that the girls were heavily influenced wrt their father, by their mother & grandmother.

Once again, there are no charges from the father on the mother. An Italian solicitor consulted by the mother has unofficially said that she may face probation IF she were convicted of any crime. Would it not be better to return & try your chances/plead her case? Once again this tells me that she is thinking of herself & not her children.

Segue, the children will be distressed because they've just come through two years of parental alienation, which is far worse. The father's task is to help them recover.

And it's not "controlling" for the father to want throw the media the hell off his property!!! He's doing the right thing in protecting his daughters.

(Or were you joking about that?)

Uodate: The father held a press conference and from what I can tell (google) they are taking a vacation in the countryside to get away from the media attention, they are all calmer, he says, and the younger two are demanding to return to school immediately.

His lawyer says they are expecting Garrett to return and they will ask for supervised visitation.

I won't bother reproducing the google version.

corrierefiorentino.corriere.it/firenze/notizie/cronaca/2012/8-ottobre-2012/sorelline-contese-vacanza-padre-istigate-terrore-2112165741936.shtml

Better in English, with video interview:
www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/italian-father-of-sisters-in-custody-dispute-speaks-out-20121008-279mv.html

Better in English, with father on video

www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/italian-father-of-sisters-in-custody-dispute-speaks-out-20121008-279mv.html

Redsilk, why are you so quick to believe the father's version of events when the judge stated he was not convinced of the truthfulness of his evidence?

This case is a triumph for nobody. The Australian courts did what they had to do under the terms of the Hague conventions, so it's possibly a triumph for international law, but nobody else.

That line about "not believing" referred to evidence of whether he had consented to their staying in Australia, not violence.

And I'm not quick to believe the father. I've grown tired of the mum's demonstrated lies. But I do respect the father's decision to try to shield his daughters from the media instead of exploiting them.

MaryZ, all good. I'm glad I'm not speaking Farsi any more . I respect your opinion, in more than just this, so was getting very frustrated! I don't like the demonisation of any parent (even Peter!). Optimist maybe?

Something I have wondered about this case, and I wonder if any of the more knowledgable posters know the answer - I'm not sure if the Hague Convention covers this.

Seeing as the eldest girl is nearly 16, what would happen if she chose to go back to Australia? Is 16 the age she can make that decision, or is it 18? I know in UK teenagers are listened to by the courts much earlier.

If she did choose to go back, who would pay her airfare? I take it that the flights this week were paid for by 'the government' - so would it be up to them to pay again? If not, what if mother or father cannot raise the funds? Would she then be forced to stay?

Could this play out right up until the youngest is 16?

For eg in my line of work if there is a marital breakdown then 'we' pay for the spouse to move back home, but there are rules to be observed, ie not within 6 months of the last move, and we won't pay for the spouse to come back if thy reconcile. How would this one be worked out?

Thanks for the update. I don't think we need to believe anyone's version. The truth is that the Hague Convention is important and here the right thing was done. Older chidlren often can choose where they live. Some men wait until their youngest is 13 in the UK (for UK english families) so that the children choose the parent on divorce with whom they will mostly live. It can be a wise tactic and English courts will not usually return a 14 or 15 year old girl against their will to one parent where they choose to live with the other. It is slightly different is another country is involved (and cf the 15 year old who ran to France from the UK where sex at 15 and over is lawful with her teacher boyfriend).

The question of who pays for air fares is a child chooses to move from one parent to another - in this case I am certain the pubilc would pay as there is so much publicity but I would imagine she will want to stay with her sisters.

In the uK this cost of transport is played out every weekend. If your no working ex wife takes the chidlren 300 miles back to her mother's in Cornwall to live as they often unfairly do and you are on benefits in Hull then that in effect means you never see the children unless you can thumb a lift down there. It is why I don't think children after divorce should ever be moved and if one parent says I want to mvoe to Cornwall then the courts shoudl say - off you go - the children will live with their father now who is not moving.

I was waiting for someone to say it's all a media "beat-up"

www.mamamia.com.au/news/italian-sisters-custody-dispute/

The father has not let his daughters talk to their mother since they arrived in Italy.

Denying a mother and her children the right to communicate is controlling. I don't know of a better word. I'm starting to understand why she abducted them in the first place. I doubt she'd get any justice in an Italian court.

www.news.com.au/national/sisters-at-centre-of-custody-dispute-in-traumatic-scenes-at-fathers-italian-villa/story-fndo4eg9-1226489984

"My daughters think that with the Australian media near them today, the journalists will save them," he said.
"But it's not the reality.
"Australian journalists were at the house today filming and they (the girls) were yelling out 'help, help'.
"These images will be shown in Australia - but this will not help my daughters."

Does this really sound like a normal, loving family to you? What child yells "help help" in the presence of her father, for gods sakes.

Thanks Xenia, I suppose my question is more a result of the way they were moved to Italy. If we suppose that the eldest girl didnt want to be in Italy, and further suppose the court moved her against her will, what happens if her parents say 'no I won't pay'. Would the girl have recourse to say to the court - "you forced me to come here, now you have to pay for my flight back"

In this case yes, I'm sure the press alone would mean she was paid for, but what about in other cases?

If the resident parent kicked the child out, does 'the government' have a duty of care to look after the child?

Again, I was at a unit that paid for a 16 year old to rtn to UK, but that was an unusual case paid for out of a welfare fund. Officially it was up to the resident parent to pay - but they wouldn't.

segue given the mothers history it is a good thing she should have no contact for a short time in order to give the family some time to heal before she starts winding up the girls again.