4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

[AmberLeaf]

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

There's no women hating going on here LtEve but it seems you are hellbent on defending this woman by clinging onto vague allegations of abuse which have no evidence and now claiming that Italy is engaged in some mass child abuse because their age of consent is lower than ours. The age of consent in some states in the US is 18. Does this mean the UK is promoting child sex because our ages is different from theirs?

The girls did not want to go, they were screaming and sounded physically scared of being returned to their father.
Do these children not get a choice in who they want to reside with?

From what I've read the courts have taken their wishes into account. That is entirely different from letting them choose. I think the decision is largely based upon the fact that a year ago they seemed happy to return (with mum) and now are 'suicidal' at the thought. What's changed in the last year? The only logical conclusion is that mum has heavily alienated them.

They may still get to decide but they will need to tell an Italian judge.

Apparently there has been allegations of abuse. But no evidence. But there IS a wealth of evidence that the woman has systematically lied and manipulated everyone around her. She lied to her ex. She lied to the embassy staff. Ignored court orders and has pretty obviously poisoned the kids minds against dad. The grandmother has even threatened to kill the kids! So sorry if I am not putting much faith in her 'abuse' claims.

There's no womenhating but plenty have pointed out that just because she is their mum, it doesn't give her carte blanche to do what she likes.

I was about to come on and support Linerunners stance that it seemed grossly inappropriate for the police to be armed in these circumstances. however given the appalling commentary relating to the grandmothers threats to kill the girls I imagine the police had genuine concerns for safety

LED, and your point is?
Yes, I obsess too much, and yes I spend too much time on YBM and MN and other boards and periodically detox and then come back, and I'm not the only one who obsessed particularly over this story. our family lived a similar situation (not with Australia though) so I'm familiar with the Hague convention and what happens when countries don't honor their commitments promptly and the terrible abuse to children from being abducted, and the lies that were told about my family. It's a situation that's far more common than you would think, just usually without the media attention.
But again, your point is?

dallas No one is sleuthing at all. All this info is readily available on the net. People are googling etc to find out the whole story. No one is looking for horror stories, I don't think!

The mum put all this out there, people just aren't settling for her side, they are trying to find the closest truth.

I agree that calling her trash isn't really pertinent to the story, but people are entitled to see her how they do. She has done something pretty horrible.

The trailertrash comments are out of order.

Someone wrote about the grandmother allegedly going off with a rental car etc, is there proof of that? because the Mothers allegations are not being believed here as there is no evidence so why believe stories that paint the grandmother in a bad light?

Just because there isn't enough evidence the father was abusive doesn't make it untrue

true, of course. But we need to remember that the mother has told NOTHING but lies before she even left Italy. She deceived the dad into signing passport forms for what he thought was a holiday.

She lied to the Embassy saying the dad knew she was relocating.

We can't be expected, really, to believe much of what she says.

No matter what the reasons, i don't believe a woman would go into 'hiding' with their kids unless there is a good reason

She went into hiding after the judge granted the return order. Because she didn't want to return them. Also the fear that she would go to prison, so she wasn't really acting in the best interests of her children a lot of the time.

I take back the trailer trash comment but do admit to sleuthing on the net (thought i did a good job too) and obsessing too much on this story. My main lesson from yesterday was that Google translate is only so-so for reading Italian news on line...

I guess my view is coloured, but DHs ex has spent 9 years of her childrens lives trying to turn them against their father, for no reason other than he dared to leave her.

She has totally destroyed their emotional well being and turned her middle child into a child abusing bully.

I can fully believe women (and men its just this thread is about a woman) use their children as pawns and do not care about the impact of their behaviour on their children, because I have seen it with my own eyes.

Well DHs ex has got what she wanted now, all 3 children with no father, one lied to police and social services to protect the other, one has been on trial for paedophilia and the other one wouldn't know the truth if it came and smacked her in the face, because her and her mother have been so busy rewriting history.

Was getting what she wanted worth the cost to the children, personally, I very much doubt it, but I guess she probably thinks it was because in her eyes, she has "won".

Me, I think she has lost, because while our lives are full of pain, they are also full of the truth and I think knowing you have lied and lied must eat away at you from the inside out.

I was about to come on and support Linerunners stance that it seemed grossly inappropriate for the police to be armed in these circumstances.

Again I think you are applying UK standards to something which happened in Australia. A country where police are all armed. As they are in Italy too.

Police having guns are the norm in virtually all countries. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill on this point.

Just because there isn't enough evidence the father was abusive doesn't make it untrue

It doesn't make it true either.

sara, they are always armed though.

In Australia, police are armed while going about their duty. Therefore, while carrying out this particular duty, they were armed.

Let's drop the whole 'the police were armed' thing now please. It is a red herring. Because it means NOTHING!

BECAUSE POLICE IN AUSTRALIA ARE ALWAYS ARMED.

Redsilk, I don't think you have to worry. It is no different to all the sleuthing that others do regarding current affairs!

I am interested in this for various reasons. I am not talking on fb about it among friends, as they are all blindly taking mums side with bare facts, without doing any digging.

Also, my friends ex has kept their children after a visit & refuses to give them back, she is beside herself, thankfully they are both in Australia, so her journey, I hope will be easier.

Actually Niceguy, I'd appreciate it if you would re-read my posts. I haven't supported the mother once, neither have I supported the father. I don't care about either of them. Your hyperbole regarding what I have supposedly said is ridiculous. I have posted my experience of small villages in Italy, yes, but I have also stated that I do NOT know where these children are going to, just that some villages aren't very nice. I also quantified that with the statement that it was my experience in 1990 - and that I haven't been back since.

I am concerned for the children. You will never persuade me that dragging children kicking and screaming and crying for their mother onto a plane was the rigt thing to do and won't have damaged them. That is my concern.

I don't need to dig into the depths of the Internet determined to find stories to discredit the mother - my ' evidence' is that the children were upset and that is plain to see.

God, I really should have hidden this thread. Poor bloody kids.

yes that I agree with poor kids

Yes thst is the crux of it really, regardless of the ins and outs of the parents stories, those children should not have been treated the way they were during their removal from australia.

How would you have delt with it?

The crux of it is, that NONE of that would have happened if 1] the mother didn't create a web of lies to abduct them in the first place & 2] she hadn't ignored the return order & gone into hiding.

My first thought was that it's terrible that the kids should have been left in Australia, as they wanted.

But then I started to imagine how I would feel and what lengths I would go to if my DH decided to try this with our kids (and his country are not currently even signatories to the Hague Convention) - well, I would be devastated. Desperate. I would go to any lengths. If it took two years and they had been turned against me by the time I got them back - I would still do it. Because I would never stop loving them. Possibly selfish, but nowhere near as selfish as child abduction.

No the kids shouldn't have been dragged to the aircraft by the police. But what other option was there?

Ignore the law because the kids were upset? There is a no other way to do this.

What should have happened is that the mother should have taken them back with her.

The method of removal is not the fault of the police, but the fault of the mother.

She kidnapped the children,no? Sue caused this.

Sue, she.

I also live in a country where police are routinely armed.

I understand that the police are ordinarily armed in Australia.

That does not negate the argument that there are some circumstances where exceptions should be made and dealing with young vulnerable children who are frightened is one of those situations where, IMO, the guns should have been dispensed with.

However, since the maternal grandmother is clearly quite mad and possibly dangerous I can quite understand why any available discretion was not exercised

You can't ignore the law because children have tantrums.

I sometimes have to force DS2 bodily into his carseat, he will kick and scream and shout No. But into the carseat he goes because it is what is best for him and it is the law whether he likes it or not.

The parents had the ability to make this less distressing they chose not to.

Tantrums? at 15 years of age?

Has anyone considered that perhaps they didn't have time to disarm? Not that I believe they should have, because I don't! People here know that you need/cross/call the police, they turn up armed.

Once again, it is a red herring. It needs to be dropped because people are using it to make it seem like the Aus authorities are bullies because the police took guns. And in fact, it was the Australia Federal Police, not the state police. So they are even less likely to disarm.