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Do we need to be more careful what we say on here?

131 replies

FrannyandZooey · 23/03/2006 08:29

\link{http://technology.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1737444,00.html\Chat room libel case}

Food for thought...

OP posts:
zippitippitoes · 23/03/2006 08:59

Only irrefutable facts I think, the same as if it was shown on a TV consumer programme (of course there the business is given the opportunity to answer back)

WideWebWitch · 23/03/2006 09:01

Oh god, this is bad news. We're already not allowed to say anything bad about Gina in case she sues. So if he'd had a posting name he wouldn't have had a case would he since he would have been anonymous?

bubblerock · 23/03/2006 09:02

Crikey, I don't blame the guy for sueing and I'm glad it was taken seriously. I'm all for freedom of speech but there has to be a line drawn somewhere, how would you feel if your child at school was being taunted and told his, for example, father was a paedophile or mother was a prostitute? Would you expect the school to stop these accusations and discipline or just say "well, everyone is allowed freedom of speech".

People need to learn that you can't just go around making accusations that can be extremely harmful.

zippitippitoes · 23/03/2006 09:07

He did say he didn't object to being called "lardy brain"

koolkat · 23/03/2006 09:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted

Cristina7 · 23/03/2006 09:28

From the little i read in this link i agree with the decision in this case, despite it favouring an extreme right-wing Tory and UKIP candidate.

Callisto · 23/03/2006 09:55

Name calling during a debate, however heated, is a childish and not particulaly intelligent thing to do. I have noticed several times on this forum that if someone has no answer to a reasonably put arguement they get personally insulting.

Callisto · 23/03/2006 09:56

BTW Koolcat - I will definitely be there with you in court as a fellow GF hater. Wink

Enid · 23/03/2006 09:56

nonce

harpsichordcarrier · 23/03/2006 09:58

hold on hold on
you can say "bad things" as long as they are true

Enid · 23/03/2006 09:59

nazi

donnie · 23/03/2006 10:00

I do like the term ' lard brain' I must say, must make a note to myself to try and use it daily!

CarolinaMoon · 23/03/2006 10:01

not much point suing individuals for libel unless they are wealthy enough to pay the damages.

better to go after the publishers cos they have more cash/insurance.

Callisto · 23/03/2006 10:03

Yes HCC agree, what I find a bit much is the 'you're a bitch' type of comments just because someone doesn't agree with your point of view.

zippitippitoes · 23/03/2006 10:03

not entirely true there are a fair few on mn who would be able to come up with £30,000

CarolinaMoon · 23/03/2006 10:09

hmmmm. so no confidentiality clause in that settlement agreement? sounds a bit fishy to me.

koolkat · 23/03/2006 10:16

Nor sure about the laws on libel, but I think it is perfectly ok to say that someone is say a "racist, chauvinist, wer, ter pig", as this is a matter of opinion and you would not be able to prove it either way.

It is not ok to say that he is a "Nazi", if that particular individual is not in fact a member of a fascist party of some sort nor has ever been a member of such a party. That's where the libel comes into play.

I suspect he was successful in court because the word "Nazi" was used.

Any libel lawyers out there ?

Hausfrau · 23/03/2006 10:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WideWebWitch · 23/03/2006 10:20

Here you go Hausfrau:

"Warning to chatroom users after libel award for man labelled a Nazi

· High court orders lecturer to pay £10,000 damages
· Lawyers say case confirms existing law applies on net

Owen Gibson, media correspondent
Thursday March 23, 2006
The Guardian

A political argument that erupted in a remote corner of cyberspace and descended into vicious name-calling could lead to a spate of libel actions by contributors to internet message boards, the man at the centre of the case claimed yesterday.
The dark side of the blogosphere was revealed by a libel action brought by Michael Keith-Smith, a former Conservative party member who stood for Ukip in Portsmouth North at the last election. He said he was moved to sue after a woman with whom he was debating the merits of military action in Iraq began a campaign of name-calling that started by describing him as "lard brain" and culminated in falsely labelling him a "Nazi", a "racist bigot" and a "nonce".

Tracy Williams, a college lecturer from Oldham, was ordered by a high court judge to pay £10,000 in damages, as well as Mr Keith-Smith's £7,200 costs, and told never to repeat the allegations.

The case is one of the first of its kind between two private individuals to go to court and, said lawyers, highlighted issues that would become more prominent as internet usage continued to grow and blogging, social networking and community sites became yet more popular.

Mr Keith-Smith told the Guardian that he took action after a debate about the Iraq war in 2003 on a Yahoo! message board with about 100 members turned ugly. "She was very pro-Bush. Initially, she called me lard brain and I wasn't particularly concerned about that. Then she called me a Nazi," he said.

He has also taken action against a second poster, he said, with whom he claimed to have settled for a sum "in the region of £30,000".

"They started saying I was on a sex offenders' list and that people shouldn't let me near their children," said Mr Keith-Smith, who is also chairman of the Conservative Democratic Alliance, which bills itself as "the leading voice of the radical Tory right".

He resolved to take legal action after the pair accused his wife of being a prostitute. But once his solicitors petitioned the court to find out the identity of Ms Williams, who contributed to the forum under a pseudonym, the abuse got worse.

"It's a matter of principle. I had no proof that anyone who read this took it seriously. I just didn't see why she should be allowed to get away with it," he said.

Legal experts said the case should be taken as a warning to the millions of people in the UK debating contentious issues on message boards, in chatrooms and on their own blogs that the laws of libel applied just as they would if the comments were published in a leaflet or newsletter.

But despite claims from some that Judge Alistair MacDuff's high court decision would hamper freedom of speech, most said the case merely provided confirmation of the existing law.

"You can't say this is something that should just be allowed to carry on. I don't think it is going to open any floodgates; it's a quite sensible application of the law," said Caroline Keane, a partner at media law firm Wiggin LLP.

But Mark Stephens, head of media law at Finer Stephens Innocent, said the case should trigger a wider debate about whether the libel law was best suited to deal with such cases. If a chatroom was self-moderating and had a limited circulation, he questioned whether such cases should ever reach court.

Most such cases never reach court because most complaints tend to be to an ISP or site owner, which would take down the defamatory content as soon as it was notified and the person making the libellous allegations would back down.

FAQ: Internet libel

Should internet service providers be worried about libel?

The issue of liability was a grey area for ISPs, but a workable system has developed through European and UK law whereby ISPs are not generally considered liable as long as they act to take down potentially libellous material when notified.

Does this affect freedom of speech?

Some have argued that in ISPs' haste to take down material complained about, they are in effect curtailing freedom of speech.

Why haven't more of these cases come to court?

Lawyers say cases between individuals have tended to be settled before reaching court.

What about site owners?

Uncertainty remains over whether a site owner such as the BBC would be liable, particularly if it claimed to moderate comments before they were added to a website."

expatinscotland · 23/03/2006 10:20

Nonce. PMSL! I'm going to have to incorporate that into my vocab.

Couldn't care less if people call me a b*tch b/c they don't agree w/me. BFD. It's the net. If that's the best they can come up with, whatever.

zippitippitoes · 23/03/2006 10:24

I think the debate is inevitable better if it doesn't descend into name calling

Hausfrau · 23/03/2006 10:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

koolkat · 23/03/2006 10:27

Basic libel law:

have a look at\link{http://www.urban75.com/Action/libel.html\this}

koolkat · 23/03/2006 10:27

I prefer "ponce" Grin

expatinscotland · 23/03/2006 10:30

I don't, zippity. But then again, I don't 'debate' b/c I can't take it seriously for the most part. It doesn't change anyone's views. Besides, they may have been drunk when they started talking or drinking and chatting and that's how it descended into a slanging match. I mean, we take the p*ss here sometimes on a Sat. night. Or throw up silly comments in the middle of a 'debate'.