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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

5 yr old girl "snatched" in Wales

534 replies

mumblechum1 · 02/10/2012 04:38

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19795761

Let's all keep our eyes peeled Sad

OP posts:
MaggieMcVitie · 09/10/2012 07:59

Thank you Helly
Everyone's support is SO much appreciated. I'll pass on the Mumsnet support for Wednesday's debrief Smile

BoffinMum · 09/10/2012 08:31

I feel sorry for the bloke being tried as well as April. Is that bad? He may be guilty or innocent - if he is innocent he is in a terrible situation with the mob baying for him, but if he is guilty and not a complete sociopath (which might be the case) then he is having to face up to having done something truly abhorrent that has outraged the entire community in which he lived, not to mention the rest of the world. So utterly sad, that his actions may have caused such universal heartbreak. I know there are people who will want to 'pitchfork the bastard' but I see it as more complicated ....

Greythorne · 09/10/2012 08:48

boffinmum
i think your pity or compassion for him if he is guilty is completely misplaced.

If innocent, of course, he is in a terrible situation of Kafkaesque proportions.

But if guilty, I think you are very sadly misguided.

missymoomoomee · 09/10/2012 08:56

You feel sorry for him even if he is guilty because he would have to face up to his actions?

I've heard it all now.

BoffinMum · 09/10/2012 09:52

Yes, maybe I am wrong. He is probably crying for himself, not through guilt, like Fritzl did. I assume a lot of people and perhaps I need to be a bit more angry. I just don't get the whole sociopath thing, I suppose, and I am wanting to see the humanity.

Sue0111 · 09/10/2012 10:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

BoffinMum · 09/10/2012 10:14

But didn't April know her abductor?

I don't think many of these tips would help in this kind of abduction.

Lexilicious · 09/10/2012 10:18

Sue0111, as it's your first post, perhaps you might like to be reminded to read more of the thread before posting. That link is a stranger danger and (IMO) over cautious list of ideas. We've discussed at length the difficulty of bringing up confident children who are not mistrustful of everyone around, but have freedoms and the ability to just play. Welcome to mumsnet, though.

Houseworkprocrastinator · 09/10/2012 10:36

I don't want my children to grow up with a fear of the world and afraid that something might happen to them at any moment. Equally I want to be confident that when they are out playing they know what to be wary of and how to act if certain situations come up.
I think finding a balance between giving them the street smarts without scaring them is really hard.

I watched a program on tv a while back about an over protective mum (she was really extreme) and her poor daughter was afraid of everything.

MrsSalvoMontalbano · 09/10/2012 11:11

Boffinmum, for the first time ever, I do agree with you on a thread Shock. Of course the whole thing is unutterably awful, and if the suspect is guilty he needs to have the book thrown at him, but as Boffinmum said, unless he is a complete sociopath, (unlikely if he has had a family life and interacted with other families, had friends etc, not the archetypal 'loner') then of course whe would be in a tota unbearable nightmare of hating himself and what he has done, and has to live with that every waking ( and probably non-waking) moment and probably wishes as much as, if not more than, anyone else to turn the clock back. If the suspect is guilty he took no steps to run away or even really cover up the crime. if the suspect is guilty it is likely to have been a moment of sheer utter madness that most of us thankfully will never endure.
People say he has not told the police where the body is - maybe he has - maybe he has told them everything, but the body has been washed away - we have no right to know what he has told the police until it is made public in a trial.

Greythorne · 09/10/2012 11:31

mrssalvo

One, he has been charged with perverting the course of justice. So, he is not / has not been helping the investigation at all. Quite the reverse. He has been trying to lead the police in false directions. Does not sound like he regrets what he is accused of doing.

Two, who says that sociopaths are loners? Sociopaths can be highly charming and manipulative individuals.

BoffinMum · 09/10/2012 11:41
DuelingFanjo · 09/10/2012 11:51

"One, he has been charged with perverting the course of justice. So, he is not / has not been helping the investigation at all. Quite the reverse. He has been trying to lead the police in false directions. Does not sound like he regrets what he is accused of doing."

but you don't know he is guilty. Perhaps he can't help because he is not guilty, in fact given the complete lack of evidence presented to us people here on this forum then there is at current no reason whatsoever to think he is guilty at all. This is why we have trials and courts, so that this can be ascertained and even though the CPS has allowed him to be charged it STILL doesn't mean he is guilty. Not everyone taken to trial is guilty.

DuelingFanjo · 09/10/2012 11:54

Ei incumbit probatio, qui dicit, non qui negat; cum per rerum naturam factum negantis probatio nulla sit?"The proof lies upon him who affirms, not upon him who denies; since, by the nature of things, he who denies a fact cannot produce any proof."

sunnyday123 · 09/10/2012 12:11

I thought Aprils friend identified him and his car and that's why they were specifically looking for him on the Tuesday and no one else? Last Tuesday when they arrested him they did so at his work address, hey werent looking for anyone else from what I read?

Houseworkprocrastinator · 09/10/2012 12:19

Greythorn - I think you are thinking of a psycopath. A sociopath often lives on the outskirts of society and be disorganised and react without thinking. They are often seen as odd by other people although can form meaningfull relationships with family etc. A psycopath can be very charming and exist in mainstream society un notices they are methodical and organised and normally act to a plan rather than emotion.

Both lack empathy for others and do not tend to feel remorse.

pumpkinsweetie · 09/10/2012 12:25

I have heard it all now Shock only on mumsnet...............

NanaNina · 09/10/2012 12:25

I posted a while ago on the lines of struggling to understand why men carry out these horrendous crimes but no-one seemed interested, so I'm glad it has been raised again. Iwas thinking that none of us can have the slightest idea of why men do these sort of things, it is totally beyond our comprehension. After 30 years of social work in Children's Services I have seen some pretty ghastly things. Children who have been abused/neglected etc but it is always the case (ime) that the parents were similarily ill treated as children and it's the only way they know of parenting. Sometimes the parents have learning difficulties, mental health problems etc, but i can honesy say I have never met a parent wh has abused their child who is just evil - very often these so called adults are just traumatised children inside.

Sexual abuse is harder to understand but whether we like it or not we have to accept that there is a reason behind it, and it is usually the case that the adult was himself sexually abused as a child, and so the victim becomes the perpetrator. I don't believe any behaviour is motiveless. Maybe it's something about control I don't know. Abduction and murder of any child (not the case in question) is for me impossible to understand. But I do agree with Boffinmum - it is something upon which to ponder.

Greythorne · 09/10/2012 12:26

HouseWork

Have you got links for those definitions? I always thought the terns sociopaths and psychopaths were used interchangeably.

Here's some attributes of sociopaths:

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Houseworkprocrastinator · 09/10/2012 12:50

A lot of it was in my criminology course from a few years back but yes that is a bit of a simplistic view and often symptoms of the two over lap but the main difference with the sociopath is the anti social part of it.

failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviours as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honour financial obligations;
Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
The individual is at least age 18 years.

web4health.info/en/answers/border-antisocial.htm

Where as a psycopath can live within the normal constraints of society easily. It has actually been found out recently that a lot of corporate CEOs have tendencies of a psycopath and that they do well because of their ruthless attitude to others and also their charm. (not nessasaraly a criminal)

NanaNina · 09/10/2012 12:51

Yes I thought they were one and the same thing too. Thanks for the list.

NanaNina · 09/10/2012 12:53

Housework thanks for your post too....I will look at your link later.

RubixCube · 09/10/2012 12:57

I can't stop imagining her mum,dad brother and sister sitting in her bedroom looking at her bed knowing she will never sleep in it again,it keeps me awake at night.Thats just so torturous for them.I feel so sorry for the Jone's family.I really do.If i feel like this i can't imagine what they are going through.My thoughts are with them

Boboli · 09/10/2012 13:04

I'm usually a real sucker for empathising with the most unlikely individuals in a situation but IF this man were found guilty, I just can't identify with anyone feeling sympathy for him?!

IF he is guilty and has to live with this for the rest of his life, then that is a million times less than what April's family will feel over their lifetimes not to mention the damage to his own family.

MarthasHarbour · 09/10/2012 13:21

'One, he has been charged with perverting the course of justice. So, he is not / has not been helping the investigation at all. Quite the reverse. He has been trying to lead the police in false directions. Does not sound like he regrets what he is accused of doing.'

greythorne that is quite a determined opinion. you dont know any of that as fact - i would be careful posting something like that tbh.

My friend is a serving police officer and has said that it is likely that he has told them where she is as the search area is so specific, and it is likely that due to the heavy rainfall she has moved. Again i dont know that as fact but a likelihood.