Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Charlie Hebdo

293 replies

CogitoErgoSometimes · 20/09/2012 09:52

Charlie Hebdo publishes satirical cartoons

No-one catch this little gem? The mag in question has a long track record for publishing offensive satirical cartoons featuring religious and other figures and decided to give the prophet Mohammed the same treatment this week, depicting him in the buff. On the one hand they're showing no fear or favour and it's a noble stand for free speech, on the other you can't help wondering if they haven't just poked an already angry dog with a very big stick.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 18/01/2015 22:04

sourdrawers, do you know the context of that last image you link to and what point is being made by CH in the text and the graphic? Do you know who the image is depicting and why? Do you know which newspaper the person being depicted, sued, and why, (clue; it wasn't Charlie Hebdo)?

The image you linked to

tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/societe/20141030.OBS3701/taubira-comparee-a-un-singe-le-directeur-de-minute-condamne-a-10-000-euros-d-amende.html The context.

writtenguarantee · 19/01/2015 00:54

So 9/11, / holocaust victims aren't funny? But according to you CH are equal opportunities offenders - so why not? There is a line about issues of taste and propriety, no? Why not the Islamic faith?

I don't understand why you don't get the difference between mocking victims of a heinous crime and mocking a religion. They are not even close to being the same. I would say the same about victims in Syria; it's in terrible taste to mock the victims violence. You understand the difference, no?

Notice, however, I never said we should ban that. The only bar to ban speech that's acceptable in my opinion is whether the said material incites violence.

It also ignores the possibility that as much as one might think they are 'even handed', one's own (editorial) prejudices might actually be focusing on a particular religion or race more often than others.

of course their prejudices affect what they print. But guess what, they have no obligation to be even handed. Frankly, I wouldn't care if they focused on islam, though they didn't. Politicians, the right wing, catholics, and others were their targets as well. Certainly, the punishment for not being even handed is not death.

but I think it's worth, at the very least, considering and listening to those who find these drawings troubling and hurtful.

My guess is everyone will stop mocking islam as soon as no one says that it's a great prescription for living. The problem is that religions in general (as the pope recently showed with his ridiculous and dangerous pronouncements on free speech) but Islam in particular, want to be exempt from criticism, as is evident from the recent attempt to insert blasphemy laws into the UN. But there is an easy way to stop people from mocking religion: it's adherents should stop telling people it''s the best and only way to live. if you tell people you have the greatest book in the world, and it tells you when it's ok to take slaves (applies to all the abrahamic religions), expect criticism of your book. Expect derision. if people are told that a certain man who married a six year old is the best example for living, expect lewd cartoons.

yes, we may likely not have totally free speech, but one of the last things that should be exempt from criticism is religion.

betseyfly · 19/01/2015 11:15

expect lewd cartoons Grow a thicker skin you Muslims! Interesting to hear you sticking up for free speech—or in this case, free racial abuse.

While you seem perfectly happy to endorse the right of Charlie Hebdo to unleash Puerile racist abuse against France's oppressed Muslim minority, you would endorse the sacking of their cartoonist in 2008 for daring to satirise the holocaust?

I am sure that I am not the only one to note the irony of your stance. Your response will probably be - Ah but the holocaust isn't funny!

But before the Second World War, Jews were the customary target of satirists of the CH variety. Voltaire, (the grand defender of the freedom to satire), was an ardent anti-Semite. After the Holocaust, Jews were brought into the Western political fold. So, today the law in many European countries, including France, criminalises Holocaust denial. But no law criminalises the denial of colonial genocide, including the colonial massacres in Algeria, the country of origin of most French Muslims. In many Western countries, there are laws against blasphemy. But they are restricted to official Christian denominations. For example, Britain has laws criminalising blasphemy, as do several other European countries, but they do not apply to Islam.

I'm sure that many people with the urge to declare “Je suis Charlie”, would NOT wish that to be an endorsement, of their depiction of the French justice minister, Christiane Taubira, who is black, drawn as a monkey?

Let’s be clear here: There is no justification whatsoever for gunning down journalists or cartoonists. I agree though with sourd's distrust of the publishers of the Danish Cartoons and Charlie Hebdo who would say. 'The solution is for Muslims is to learn to laugh at themselves and it's our job to civilise them into doing this'. I'd argue also that laughing at oneself is not quite the same as being laughed at, especially as a group.. CH's Inflammatory and rather schoolboy imagery does not work IMO. If anything it is counter productive.

BTW the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten, that published caricatures of Mohammed in 2005, rejected cartoons mocking Christ because they would “provoke an outcry” and proudly declared it would “in no circumstances . . . publish Holocaust cartoons”. Muslims though need to toughen up it seems.

Beachcomber · 19/01/2015 12:16

These same accusations keep coming up - that CH is racist and proJudasim/ antiMuslim, ususally with the same examples being cited; that of the sacking of Siné and the image of Ms Taubira. I think a number of people are guilty of picking up a few bits and bobs from the internet and then picking them up and running with them. I know people don't tend always click on links so here is an article for those who want to really understand the the ethos of the magazine and those murdered for contributing to it.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/lliana-bird/charlie-hebdo_b_6461030.html

Over the past few days I, along with the rest of the world, have been horrified by the terrible atrocities committed in France last week, beginning with the massacre at the Charlie Hedbo offices, and continuing through the streets of Paris and into the supermarket of a jewish community.

I was equally moved by the outpouring of love and solidarity which followed. No, it doesn't help bring back the deceased, but it demonstrated the unbreakability of the human spirit, and it highlighted the similarities of our humanity amongst men and women in a society so often fractured by our differences.

But one thing I've found difficult to ignore is the growing voices of those who knew little of the cartoonists and journalists saying terrible things about them, which are quite frankly unsettling.

"Racist", "Islamophobic" and "hypocritical" have been the most common accusations. Many seemingly educated friends and social media buddies seemed to be merely glancing at a few cherry-picked Charlie Hebdo covers without making any effort in understanding their true meaning or impetus (or often even of the French translation of the accompanying captions).

So to those smearing the names and reputations of men and women who are no longer here to defend themselves a few things that I thought it might be good to know....

Charlie Hedbo were leftists, some may even anarchists and punks. They printed numerous cartoons which were anti racism/xenophobia; that mocked and satirised the far right as bigots and racists. As long time reader and Frenchman, Olivier Tonneau pointed out in his excellent article, The National Front and the Le Pen family were in fact their primary targets above all others. Next came bosses, politicians and the corrupt. Finally they opposed organised religion. ALL organised religion. They didn't hate or abuse or target any one group or religion. They did however mock ALL systems and organisations and individuals of power - from political to religious to everything in between. They were satirists, and all people, systems and organisations should be open to criticism and mockery (so long as it sticks within the laws of the land). They were democratic in their ridicule and satirisation. No one was exempt. To do otherwise would have been the hypocritical. Equal rights also means equal treatment.

Accusations of Islamophobia alone seem to ignore the fact that the Pope, Jesus, Orthodox Jews (amongst many others) were targeted in equal measure. As the publication's lawyer Richard Malka said this week "In each edition for the past 22 years there has not been one where there have not been caricatures of the pope, jesus, priests, rabbis, immans or Mohammed." Although of course... perhaps you still believe they were Islamophobic, Christian-phobic, and anti-Semitic... but it seems it was not the every day believer they were intentionally targeting.

"We want to laugh at extremists - every extremist," surviving staff member Laurent Leger stated. "They can be Muslim, Jewish, Catholic. Everyone can be religious, but extremist thoughts and acts we cannot accept".

Much has been made of the fact (and accusations of hypocrisy bandied around) over the fact that a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist was sacked in 2009 over an alleged anti-Semitic cartoon (although its rarely noted this decision was taken by a long-since departed editor; that the sacked journalist ultimately won his unfair dismissal suit; and that this cartoon targeted a specific individual as opposed to an entire religion or idea), and many have asked why Muslims should expect to put up with things that Jews don't. Which would be a fair point, if it was true.

Judaism was frequently lampooned (a simple Google search will verify that). The Charlie Hebdo team were also very much pro-Gaza, and often fiercely critical of Israel's actions in the Israel-Palestine conflict. One series entitled 'One Commandment A Day: The Torah Illustrated by Charb' coarsely depicts Jews as contradicting their religious values in their interactions with Palestinians."Ne pas opprimer les faibles" ("Don't oppress the weak") is the title of a cartoon of a Jewish man firing an assault weapon into the back of a Palestinian woman. "Here, take that Goliath!," he shouts.

More in-depth research and conversations with those who were regular readers of the magazine reveal that Charlie Hebdo also strongly and regularly denounced the plight of minorities, they wrote in support of the Kurds, and they campaigned relentlessly for all illegal immigrants to be given permanent right of stay. One of Cabu's most famous creations was Mon Beauf, which caricaturised an ignorant, racist and bigoted Frenchman, and Bernard Velhac, also known as Tignous (and a member of Cartoonists for Peace) once said, "I would love to think that every time I make a drawing it prevents a kidnapping, a murder, or removes a land mine. What joy it would be! If I had that power I would stop sleeping and would make drawings non-stop."

As Oliver Tonneau so beautifully writes: "Two young French Muslims of Arab descent have not assaulted the numerous extreme-right wing newspapers that exist in France (Minute, Valeurs Actuelles) who ceaselessly amalgamate Arabs, Muslims and fundamentalists, but the very newspaper that did the most to fight racism... I hope this helps you understand that if you belong to the radical left, then you lost precious friends and allies last week."

The comments section underneath this article will no doubt be full of remarks and examples of cartoons which appear to defy this and which seem to to scream "racism!" and honestly, it would take a far longer article than I could write here (or you would care to read of mine) to go through every single cartoon, analyse it, explain the context, the news item behind it, the cultural context, the nuances and history of French humour, satire and cartoons (which were used up to 400 years ago to mock religion, royalty and other powerful and oppressive institutions in a time when many people couldn't read and cartoons were essential in the fight against monarchy and the church).

Only then after all that might we appreciate that the cartoon depicting France's black Justice minister Christiane Taubira as a monkey was actually lampooning the blatant racism of a far right wing paper's front cover and thus exposing the thinly veiled racism of that publication (note that Taubira sued the paper Charlie Hebdo were parodying, and not Charlie Hebdo). By depicting the world through the lens of the extreme right's gaze they were attacking the racists, not the race.

We might also understand that the now widely shared front cover titled "Boko Haram Sex Slaves are angry" with the women shouting "don't touch our welfare" says the exact opposite of what it first appears at first glance. As Max Fisher explains in Vox this week far better than I could, "Charie Hebdo is a leftist magazine that supports welfare programs, but the French political right tends to oppose welfare programs... what this cover actually says is that the French political right is so monstrous when it comes to welfare for immigrants that they would have you believe that even Nigerian migrants escaping from Boko Haram sexual slavery are just here to steal welfare."

And we may appreciate that the very controversial cartoon of Mohammed being filmed naked titled "The film that embraces the Muslim world:" wasn't merely for the sake of putting him in a lewd position - it is a parody of a Brigitte Bardot scene in Jean-Luc Goddard's film Contempt thus satirising the outrage following the release of a controversial film about Islam.

Perhaps knowing all this and more you (or even I) may still find these and other cartoons extremely offensive (or worse) .

It's your right to feel that way, and to say as much as loudly as you like (and in doing so even to offend others). Freedom of speech means that some things people say and do are bound to offend you and vice versa. That's ok. As (a personal hero of mine) Majid Nawaz says you have every right to be offended, you do not have the right to not be offended.

Of course, freedom of speech is not absolute, no one sane would suggest it is. The laws of the land lay out what is and is not permissible. Defamation, incitement of violence and hate speech are just a few examples of where what you say crosses a line. But in France, religion is fair game.

Incitement of violence against Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists etc is not ok (or legal). But criticism and mockery of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or atheism and the ideas they represent is. People have rights. Ideas do not. And the law is there to punish those who cross that line.

If anyone genuinely felt that the Charlie Hebdo crossed that very line then they had the option to start legal proceedings (as the Catholic church did many times). Fear of being prosecuted is a valid one that journalists, comedians and even cartoonists consider. Fear of losing one's life shouldn't be. The law is there to guide us in what we say, and punish us when we go too far. If you don't feel that the law adequately represents the rights of muslims or anyone else for that matter, or that certain depictions of religious figures in cartoons shouldn't be permissable, you're free to say so, write about it, protest and campaign to change the law. You aren't however free to take the law into your own hands.

The thought that a religion, a set of beliefs, or an idea, could be above criticism or ridicule is, to me, a scary one which could lead us into very dangerous ground.

Ultimately the line between humour and offence is a thin one, and the posts will move from person to person. It's something satirists and stand up comedians are well aware of. And the boundaries are often pushed. I don't doubt many people would have found the Charlie Hebdo cartoons extremely offensive, and I'm not here to tell you that's wrong, but the insinuation that insulting/offending people may have invited this horrific tragedy on any level is tantamount in my eyes to the old age adage that a rape victim "asked for it" by wearing a short skirt. It's victim blaming at its very worst, and especially against people who fought in many ways for the rights of those who attacked them.

So long as offence remains within the bounds of what is legally acceptable, then it is just that - acceptable - whether you personally like it or not. And until the respective laws change, people are just going to have to like it or lump it (or live in a country where the laws are different).

As we all argue about what's right to say and what's wrong, what's offensive, and what's hypocritical, it might do us good to remember that 17 people died last week in the cruelest of ways. Each was their own person, no doubt differing in their morals, ethics, ideas and thoughts. Let's not call many of them names before they are even cold in the ground, although... of course, it's your right to do so if you like because most of you, like them, have similar freedom of expression. I may not like you insulting them, and you may not like anything that i've said in this article, but as you write your comment in section underneath (perhaps about what a stupid idiot you think I am) just remember that Charlie Hebdo's staff died standing up for your right to do so.

MarshaBrady · 19/01/2015 12:21

Completely agree with Betsey

We've left behind these kind of depictions of everyone but Muslims. The way they are depicted is deliberately insulting.

writtenguarantee · 19/01/2015 12:32

I am sure that I am not the only one to note the irony of your stance. Your response will probably be - Ah but the holocaust isn't funny!

If you look above, I said I don't think holocaust denial should be illegal.

I am not sure why people don't understand the distinction between making fun of a religion, making fun of people, and making fun of the near genocide of a people.

If speech is to be limited, and I don't really think it should, but if it is, it's limits should be put on attacking people not religions. Thus, it's totally fine to mock and criticise islam, but not muslims as muslims are people. Certainly, it's just as bad to mock the deaths of muslims as it is to mock the deaths of other people.

I have heard about this accusation the CH sacked someone for an anti semitic cartoon, but I can't comment since I don't know the content of that cartoon. But if the cartoon merely attacked Judaism, then they should not have sacked the cartoonist. But if it mocked Jews, then that's different.

Religion is fair game. People are not. Clear?

Beachcomber · 19/01/2015 12:56

I highly recommend this article too written by a Frenchman. I won't spam the thread by citing the whole thing, but here are some quotes. I hope people do actually read such articles - of course they may end up disagreeing, which is fine, but at least they will have a bit more information.

Those who feel that people of Arabic origin are discriminated against in France (I agree they are and it is a pressing issue in the country) will find much to agree with in the following

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/13/charlie-hebdo-solution-muslims-french-arab-descent-newspaper-fight-racism

This being clear, the attack becomes all the more tragic and absurd: two young French Muslims of Arab descent have not assaulted the numerous extreme rightwing newspapers that exist in France (Minute, Valeurs Actuelles) who ceaselessly attack Arabs, Muslims and fundamentalists, but the very newspaper that did the most to fight racism. And to me, the one question that this specific event raises is: how could these youths ever come to this level of confusion and madness? What feeds into fundamentalist fury?

Trapped in a binary west v Muslim worldview, some of them have tragically failed to recognise that a newspaper such as Charlie Hebdo, which was standing with Palestine, for ethnic minorities, for equal rights and justice, was on their side – a precious ally: the sole fact that Charlie Hebdo had poked fun at their faith was enough to make its journalists worthy of death.

The attack on Charlie Hebdo will be exploited by the far right, and by the government which will use it as an opportunity to create a false unanimity within a deeply divided society.

writtenguarantee, Siné was sacked because of a cartoon about an individual - it was about him marrying a Jewish woman and converting to Judaism for reasons of financial interest and social network. It was considered a personal attack by the magazine. CH routinely satirizes Orthodox Jews and Israeli violence in general, just as they criticize other religions and extremists, but they don't go after individuals unless they are public figures of power (the pope, politicians, etc). I suspect that a fair bit of the sacking had to do with personality clashes with the editor and I believe he won his unfair dismissal case. CH could have been sued over the cartoon and they probably would have (rightly) lost.

Beachcomber · 19/01/2015 13:09

Forgot - I wanted to comment on this;

Aren’t you sickened to see Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of a country that was responsible for the killing of seven journalists in Gaza in 2014, attend the “unity rally” in Paris as well?

Yes, I was, as were many French people. Some of the people connected with Charlie Hebdo decided not to join the march due to the presence of people they had no wish to associate with. There are a couple of articles in the French press from CH contributors which express their feelings on this and their dismay at the 'Je suis Charlie' slogan being picked up and used by people whose values are anything but those of Charlie or the laïc democratic freedom of speech left. Marine Le Pen didn't march and CH contributors were glad she did not and said that at least she wasn't being a hypocrite.

Whilst CH contributors appreciated the solidarity of the people of France they feel that a lot of what went on is political and cynical and they do not want the focus taken off terrible violence and injustice happening elsewhere and they are angry at being used by politicians to promote a message of fraternity/solidarity that they have always criticized as being lacking in both France and the world in general.

Beachcomber · 19/01/2015 13:44

(Marine Le Pen didn't march - should have read that the didn't march in Paris.)

sourdrawers · 19/01/2015 16:19

In response to Betseyfly.. I couldn't agree more.

I also take issue with CH and their supporters who take the stance that their ‘liberal’ thinking is justification for the disgusting racist imagery of Muslims, a black female as a primate, Obama as a black, Jim Crow-era type Sambo. Will erode and eventually civilise France’s Muslims superstitions and the countries racists into re - thinking themselves. This is a superstition in itself it seems to me.

Personally, I wouldn’t say these are ‘blasphemous cartoons’ I would though suggest they should be called ‘bigoted cartoons.’ As I said before, using overtly racist imagery to satirise those with racist views is at the very best ‘dubious’. At worst - well, can you imagine that some right-wing, Le Penist, bonehead is going to be inspired to think deeper about those from the former colonies who are in France as immigrants, that they might be there because the French were in their countries in the first place? I seriously doubt it.

This war cry of ‘we insult and offend everyone so that’s you disarmed’, is made of straw IMO. Not only is this claim of CH’s even-handedness totally belied by their firing of a cartoonist for using a Jewish stereotype under Philippe Val. (Which it seems is now viewed as unfair to mention) It is colossally stupid and arrogant.

When asked to comment on the Danish Cartoons of Mohamed, German novelist Gunter Grass said they reminded him of anti- Semitic cartoons in the German magazine, Der Sturmer. The editor of which was tried at Nuremberg BTW. It’s a funny old thing history.

Andante57 · 19/01/2015 16:29

Would Charlie Hebdo have had the same amount of supporters after its journalists were killed if it had been a right wing magazine?

WetAugust · 19/01/2015 16:31

"Racist imagery of Muslims" and the other statements down thread that call criticism and cartoons of Muslims "racist"

Islam is a set of beliefs followed by peoples of all races

Islam is not a separate race

Criticism of Islam is not racist.

We need to be accurate about this as Muslims would dearly like to be thought of as a separate race so all criticism would be banned under racial discrimination law.

writtenguarantee · 19/01/2015 16:36

Islam is a set of beliefs followed by peoples of all races

Islam is not a separate race

Criticism of Islam is not racist.

these are apparently difficult concepts to grasp.

MarshaBrady · 19/01/2015 16:41

The illustrations are still grossly characterising people.

WetAugust · 19/01/2015 16:56

Remember

A cartoon artist picked up a pencil and drew some lines on a page

Because of that, he, his 11 colleagues, and 2 policemen were slaughtered by 2 people who did not like what he had drawn

Can anyone honestly condone killing someone because you don't line a few lines drawn on a sheet if paper.

The "offence" is manufactured by those who chose to TAKE offence.

If your beliefs are so fragile that they cannot bear the scrutiny of someone picking up a pen and drawing some lines on a piece of paper your belief then it's really no surprise that you have to use violence to enforce your faith.

Beachcomber · 20/01/2015 08:50

sourdrawers, did you see my questions to you earlier? I asked if you knew who the woman is in the drawing of a black person depicted as a monkey. I also asked you if you understood the text on the drawing and the context to which it is referring.

I posted a link which explained the context in the French news and I posted two articles which explain that cartoon. I hope you read them.

Just to give a bit more context to those who are maybe not very familiar with French politics, here the Front National is a strong political force. France has proportional representation and a president - it is therefore much easier for extreme parties to end up having significant representation in government if enough people decide to vote for them.

For example, in the 2002 presidential elections we ended up having to choose between Chirac (right wing) and Le Pen (National Front), so France could have ended up with a National Frontist president. The way the presidential elections work here is that there are two votes - the first vote is to choose which candidates from all those who present will go through to the 'second round'. Two candidates make it through and the country then votes a second time to choose from those two. Usually the choice is someone left wing and someone right wing or someone central and then someone either left or right wing. In 2002 the leader of the National Front made it through to the second round and we had to choose between him and a right wing candidate. Fortunately the least worst option (Chirac) won by a large percentage but it was a big eye opener to a lot of people to see that a National Front candidate ended up being in second place in presidential elections. It was quite a shock and made us all have a bit of a think about how very possible it is for extremists to become heads of state.

The National Front party in France are extreme right but they are polished politicians who wear suits and know how to use the press and the media - they are not a fringe party with no hope of ever having any real power. They are a force to be reckoned with and a lot of people vote for them and will have FN posters in their windows at election time. France has a large rural population, many of whom are very right wing because they think they are supporting 'traditional' values and patriotism. There is also a lot of urban tension between white French and French people from ex colonies and the National Front use this to their advantage.

The drawing of Ms Taubira depicted as a monkey is because an ex National Front politician compared her to one and said she would be better off in the jungle rather than in politics. This was picked up by a (horrible) right wing newspaper who made comments about monkeys and jokes about bananas. The newspaper was fined and the politician was given a prison sentence.

When Charlie Hebdo published the catroon of Ms Taubira they did it with the National Front logo next to the drawing and a play on words about 'gathering the racists' which mocks the National Front's party line. The picture was intended to be shocking because it was shouting out exactly what the far right in France actually said about a person of colour. It was an in your face picture of what it was to be a National Front supporter or voter.

What it most definitely wasn't is Charlie Hebdo comparing black people to monkeys. (And if they had they would have been, quite rightly, sued, fined, and potentially jailed.)

Satire generally works on many levels as it is a form of political commentary. Often one has to be aware of the current affairs it is referring to in order for it to make sense. I can assure you that most people in France were totally aware of the context of the Taubira cartoon because it was referring to a scandal that was all over the mainstream press.

writtenguarantee · 20/01/2015 11:16

Grow a thicker skin you Muslims! Interesting to hear you sticking up for free speech—or in this case, free racial abuse.

Hmmm. Free racial abuse. That's not what the killers said. They said they were avenging the prophet. The killers did not attack actual racist groups, or the offices of the Front National, or other consequential organizations that are actually trying to stop particularly muslims from entering france. They attacked an immigrant friendly cartoon magazine. And they said they were avenging the prophet, not combating racism against muslims in france.

Right from the horse's mouth.

sckwidinc · 20/01/2015 11:48

WetAugust It is a mistake to underestimate the power and potential that lines on bits of paper can contain. They can be extremely constructive as well as harmful. Constitutions, laws & legislation, works of art, racial hatred, these can all start life as someone putting some lines on bits of paper. They can of course inspire evil and depraved minds to go and commit mass murder.

I don't think it matters how much you try and contextualise Charlie Hebdo's lines on bits of paper written. Or explain to us how we just don't get it. (You might or might not see them as part of a sophisticated, political discourse. And if only we knew more about French society and politics and removed our PC blinkers, we too could appreciate and enjoy them). That's your view and good luck to you. For me though, they remain vulgar caricatures and I agree they are a cheap, lazy and antiquated way in which to make a satirical point. The style of which has a history in Britain too, but they feel dated, immature, and insulting nonetheless.

"Je suis Charlie" for me does not mean i wish to associate with this journal and it's content. Rather I would like a more sensible debate on this subject of terror and violence on our streets, by an examination into the political aspects of this radicalisation of some people, which is so missing in our media. All we hear is that it is nothing but religious radicalisation, giving the impression that it is somehow in the culture of Islam to promote diabolical acts of murder like we saw in Paris last week. There's one thing we could do to stop this type of terror from seeking out innocent individuals in our cities, and that is to stop engaging in terror ourselves in theirs.

Beachcomber · 20/01/2015 14:18

Rather I would like a more sensible debate on this subject of terror and violence on our streets, by an examination into the political aspects of this radicalisation of some people, which is so missing in our media. All we hear is that it is nothing but religious radicalisation, giving the impression that it is somehow in the culture of Islam to promote diabolical acts of murder like we saw in Paris last week.

That was exactly the point that Charlie Hebdo were making with the cover of the survivor's issue. And it is why they chose the headline 'all is forgiven'. The person who did that particular drawing gave a press conference in which he spoke about how the people who murdered his colleagues were once innocent children who no doubt liked to draw and he questioned what had gone wrong in their world for them to end up the way they did (and it was clear that he was not finger pointing at Islam but was also referring to French discrimination against Muslims). It was humbling and moving to watch.

Many of the contributors of Charlie Hebdo also published in mainstream media and spoke on TV and radio - hence their being household names despite the low circulation of the magazine. And this is exactly the sort of thing they would argue. (Hence their stance on illegal immigrants, Gaza and so on.)

writtenguarantee · 20/01/2015 16:09

Rather I would like a more sensible debate on this subject of terror and violence on our streets, by an examination into the political aspects of this radicalisation of some people, which is so missing in our media. All we hear is that it is nothing but religious radicalisation, giving the impression that it is somehow in the culture of Islam to promote diabolical acts of murder like we saw in Paris last week.

Why do you think that people who support free speech don't want a sensible debate? Of course we do. The point that we are making is that there is room in the discourse for crass cartoons. However, it's hard to have a debate of any kind, sensible or not, if people think they are going to be killed over it. that's not conducive to having any discussion.

As for only religion being the source of radicalisation, I don't know what you have been reading, but there's a lot of voices saying it's NOT religion. Politicians run to the mic to say it's not islam, it's radical whatever. I personally don't think it's solely religious, there are economic and political factors, but religion seems to be part of it. At least that's what the killers themselves claim.

chocolatine · 21/01/2015 10:24

Just to support Beachcomber who seems to be banging her head against a brick wall trying to convince you that Charlie Hebdo was not some racist newsletter.

Beachcomber's explanation for the cartoon is spot in - the idea was to mock Marine Le Pen's attempt to rebrand the FN as a moderate "normal" party after right-wingers compared the black Justice minister Christine Taubira to a monkey. The text makes this clear. The not very subtle subtext is - ignore the rebranding, this is really what the FN thinks.

Charb - the editor of Charlie who drew the monkey cartoon - said in relation to it "Charlie Hebdo est clairement un journal engagé dans les actions anti-racistes. Pour dénoncer le racisme, il faut parfois le représenter ou en tout cas représenter l’image choquante qu’on veut dénoncer." (Charlie Hebdo is clearly a magazine which campaigns against racism. To fight against racism, you sometimes need to show the shocking image that you are fighting against).

Anyone in France who knows Charlie would accept that it is sometimes juvenile and in bad taste, but would laught at the idea that it is racist. It's basically read by lefty students and lefty old men intellectuals, not FN supporters.

In case you are not convinced, maybe it would help to know that Taubira went to Charb's funeral. (Charb). As did Najat Vallaud-Belkacem (the female education minister, born in Morocco) and Fleur Pellerin (culture minister, born in South Korea).

BTW I've heard a lot about how downtrodden immigrants are in France, but you might find it enlightening to compare the French governments racial make-up www.gouvernement.fr/composition-du-gouvernement to the UK one www.gov.uk/government/ministers. Which is not to say that there are no problems, but that Brits often have a very over-simplified view of the reality here.

Beachcomber · 21/01/2015 19:11

Thank you chocolatine.

You may already have read this but if not, may find it of interest.

www.cercledesvolontaires.fr/2013/12/22/si-charlie-hebdo-est-raciste-alors-je-le-suis-reponse-de-zineb-el-rhazoui-a-olivier-cyran/

sckwidinc · 22/01/2015 17:00

I never said CH was a racist publication, do try and read my posts before you make statements like that! I said I support the sentiment that lampooning racism by reproducing brazenly racist imagery is a very dubious satirical tactic and I'm pleased that this is not the sort of thing you'd see in Britain. Please don't try and turn this discussion into Britain V France, 'we're less racist than you' childishness!

mrsbrownteapot · 22/01/2015 20:20

I agree that satire is when one directs it either at oneself, causes people to think twice about what they are doing and saying, or directs it at people who have power and privilege. There is nothing funny about CH cartoons. If you find them funny or relevant, depicting Jews with big lips and hook noses is also funny..

Something that may interest. On the subject of double standards. In 2013 Times owner Rupert Murdoch apologised for a cartoon by Gerald Scarfe that had appeared in the newspaper. The cartoon depicted the brutal Israeli treatment of Palestinians but was not in any way anti-Semitic.

Murdoch, tweeted:

'Gerald Scarfe has never reflected the opinions of the Sunday Times. Nevertheless, we owe major apology for grotesque, offensive cartoon.'

Charlie Hebdo
Beachcomber · 23/01/2015 08:40

I said I support the sentiment that lampooning racism by reproducing brazenly racist imagery is a very dubious satirical tactic and I'm pleased that this is not the sort of thing you'd see in Britain.

Well that's fair enough and there are plenty people who will agree with you. I am British and I live in France - and I don't agree with you. I'm not saying what I am because I'm a French person trying to defend something French. And I think it is unfortunate that you imply that Britain is superior somehow to France in this context.

As I said before, the French National Front is a serious concern in French politics. They have successfully branded themselves as a non extremist party and they have successfully made a place for themselves in mainstream politics. I suspect that this is something that it is quite difficult for British people to really imagine - although it is perhaps becoming less difficult now that we have UKIP.

Because the National Front have a facade of mainstream respectability, they get away with saying quite outrageous things and getting mainstream people to support quite outrageous things. And satirists like those at Charlie Hebdo use drawings to point this out. There were plenty of papers who reported the story using words - and they quoted the racist words uttered and printed about Ms Taubira. These publications reproduced very racist words. Not in order to be racist but in order to report on the racism of the FN. Charlie Hebdo did the same, but with a drawing.

They didn't reproduce racist imagery - they produced an image which shone a floodlight on how racist a mainstream political party is. And yes, it is a shocking image and one can debate whether it is uncompromising satire or an unhelpful racist image. In order to have that debate I do think it is important to be aware of the context however (and perhaps open to the idea that the British way of seeing things and doing things is not the only right way).

Swipe left for the next trending thread