woman sentenced to 8 years for 38-week home abortion

[WokingOnSunshine]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19621675
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2204471/Mother-Sarah-Catt-terminated-baby-week-date-using-medication.html

Its not just a case of "just evil" I feel though mrsd, because peoples motivations for acts will vary but I dont think accepting people can be just plain rotten is a cop out at all, indeed I think its the opposite - using mental illness is a cop out, "oh they are out of their mind" type cop out. She may have a personality disorder (I say may because I cant possibly know this of course).

Why did she do it? Dont know, but the darker side of human behaviour is fascinating. There are common drives though in people that can cause them to commit terrible crimes to get what they want - greed, jealousy, desire, love etc.

But she had abortions that had nothing to do with infidelity so I dont think it is relevant.

shesariver but it doesn't have to be one or the other. Someone can be mentally I'll and still be a nasty, selfish, dangerous person. They can be sane and be just as horrible.

NOT being mentally I'll shouldn't mean that a person does not get 'treatment' for want of a better word.
Peadophilia is not a mental illness and is not curable but I strongly believe that Peadophiles should go through programes that make them face up to the reality of their crimes. Same for rapists and other violent criminals.

Otherwise what is the point of prison? Facing up to yourself for perhaps the first time in your life can surely be classed as a punishment?

Youre right there about a mentally ill person maybe just being nasty and vice versa.

I get what you mean by "treatment", but not all rapists etc need facing up to themselves - they are perfectly aware of what they are. At a basic level it serves justice - punishment of offences by removing the offender from the rest of society. Then comes "rehabilitation" to make the offender less likely to offend. I would hazard a guess this is rarely successful based on figures Ive heard in the past. It depends what is meant by treatment to.

I once interviewed a murderer. He was sane when he committed his appalling crimes (two murders) as a young man. But he was very badly damaged by an horrific, abusive, neglectful childhood - neglected by both his father, after his mother died, and by the state after he was taken into care.

He told me that as a homeless child (after running away from children's homes) he used to walk along the street of an evening and look into the windows where people hadn't drawn their curtains, wondering how the hell you got a home and a family. Dreaming of a home and family but having no idea how to get there, and knowing that he never would.

That doesn't excuse what he did. He didn't try to justify what he had done. He served 20+ years and says he sees his role now as trying to pay back into society and pay back the person who turned him around in prison and believed he was worth something, worth salvaging.

I have no idea whether the woman in this case has battled any demons of her own, but you don't have her sad obstetric history without being very troubled indeed. You can be sane but very damaged. That doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions, of course.

That's what I mean but you said it better edam

Trying to understand, not wanting to throw rocks at prison vans, not wanting someone strung up - doesn't mean I am a wishy washy liberal who doesn't want someone to be punished.

I have never understood the mentality of those who chased the boys in the Bu case screaming and calling for their death.
His family - yes but total strangers?

Yes Edam, there is absolutely no doubt peoples childhoods can and often influence them negatively - they shape who we are and are the part of our lives where we learn social rules, particularly about relationships, and this becomes the basis on which we have an understanding of these as we grow. Neglect and abuse can have horrific long term implications. If we aren't "taught" the "rules" then chaos can ensue. Conversely You can also get people who have so called "normal" childhoods that grow up to be "bad" adults.

I see patients who have been in these circumstances as children and tend to have turned the anger and self hatred onto themselves. What fascinates me is how some end up with low self esteem , mood problems, borderline personality disorder etc and in therapy...and some turn out to be abusers, killers, do awful things etc themselves. I guess it all comes down to the old "nature versus nurture" arguments to. The people I have came across that I genuinely fear are psychopaths because no amount of help or treatment will make the slightest bit of difference....I think some people can be genetically predisposed to psychopathy (like other disorders) - only my opinion - but if they have a "normal" childhood then the chances of them displaying the symptoms will be reduced.

Oh yes you do of course get people who do terrible things who have not been treated badly themselves. And you are probably right that some people may be predisposed towards psychopathy.

(Thanks, MrsDevere, btw. The conversation with the murderer was one of the most haunting I've ever had in my 17-year career as a journalist. He's a good man, now, as far as I can tell. Not much comfort to the families of his victims, possibly.)