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Save the Children launches appeal for children in the UK

829 replies

Vagaceratops · 05/09/2012 10:45

BBC link

And it will get worse :(

OP posts:
buttermintoes · 11/09/2012 11:03

*That's why it's laughable to insult the unemployed, at least the money they get is getting spent and in this country too.

Moan all you like about them buying booze and flags, at least they are doing so on the high street and those things are highly taxed.*

Shock Well, there's the answer to all our problems, lets all get unemployed, not feed or clothe our children (no VAT to be gained), just blow the lot on booze and fags.

How many mega business' (like Tesco's/Asda) do you think there are?
99.9% of private sector enterprises are small to medium sized business'
here

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 11/09/2012 11:19

No they aren't, and no they don't.

My bad, I meant combined - they are the largest employers, as opposed to individual supermarket chains. Combined they employ around 900,000 people.

That link doesn't say anything about wages btw.

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 11/09/2012 11:30

Ok, so single mother with 2 kids. She's a cleaner for an SME and she is paid minimum wage. Her salary plus combined CB, WTC and CTC is still not enough to meet the basic cost of living. Her children are part of the 60% living in poverty with a working parent.

If the government is not to 'throw more money at her', and it would be terribad to expect her employer to pay her a bit more. What can be done to help her?

flatpackhamster · 11/09/2012 11:37

That's still not the case. Finance definitely employs more, and I'd guesstimate that high-tech (Siemens, Xerox etc) does too.

No, it doesn't say anything about wages. Those low-paid shelf-stackers aren't the big part of the business. They're just the visible front end. There's a whole infrastructure chain behind that - lorry drivers, loaders, product sourcing, advertising, customer service - that isn't on minimum wage. It certainly won't be "most" workers.

I found a crappy newspaper link on an equally crappy report by the laughably named "Fair Pay Network" which claimed that the supermarkets pay £6.83 p/h, when the minimum wage is £6.08.

So apparently even the low earners in the big supermarkets get paid above minimum wage.

flatpackhamster · 11/09/2012 11:39

SmellsLikeTeenStrop

Ok, so single mother with 2 kids. She's a cleaner for an SME and she is paid minimum wage. Her salary plus combined CB, WTC and CTC is still not enough to meet the basic cost of living. Her children are part of the 60% living in poverty with a working parent.

If the government is not to 'throw more money at her', and it would be terribad to expect her employer to pay her a bit more. What can be done to help her?

You mean "what more, apart from all the free money she gets and the free healthcare and free education for her children"?

Nothing. She needs to help herself. She needs to upskill.

niceguy2 · 11/09/2012 11:52

The fictional single mum with 2 kids being paid NMW would get nearly £8k per year in tax credits, as well as bit of council tax benefit and probably some housing benefit too if they were tenants.

So that brings your example to have a household income of actually well over £20k a year gross.

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 11/09/2012 12:11

Nothing. She needs to help herself. She needs to upskill.

So, why can't we expect businesses to 'help themselves', rather than keeping them reliant on government hand-outs to top-up the shitty wages they pay their employees?

SunWukong · 11/09/2012 12:18

Jjb is in trouble because demand has gone down, people are wearing their shoes until they have holes in now because they can't afford new ones.

HMV fucked themselves by not getting with the times, music sales are mostly downloads and they where too slow to see is and too resistant to close stores until it was too late.

You can't base your argument against increased wages on a few big chains that got stuffed by the recession, being stupid or being too slow to change with the times.

Who is a prime example of a company too look up to?, all the pound shops sprouting up left right and centre in response to the lack of cash in people's pockets. Who use workfare slaves and zero hour contracts?.

And yes i think it's a little metro or express tesco that was set up as a test, hopefully the locals boycotted it.

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 11/09/2012 12:18

So that brings your example to have a household income of actually well over £20k a year gross.

she's a cleaner for an SME, she's probably not working full time.

flatpackhamster · 11/09/2012 12:22

SmellsLikeTeenStrop

So, why can't we expect businesses to 'help themselves', rather than keeping them reliant on government hand-outs to top-up the shitty wages they pay their employees?

If the woman in your argument is unable to support her two children on her own, then she needs to earn more. That means she needs to upskill because she's doing unskilled work.

Merely forcing businesses to pay more for unskilled work won't make the woman richer. It'll make her unemployed. All that will happen is that the SME will lay her off and hire a contract cleaner who's probably a childless migrant.

niceguy2 · 11/09/2012 12:30

Smells. Businesses used to pretty much have to 'help themselves' as you put it. Back before the introduction of tax credits and NMW, businesses had to set a salary which was high enough to attract employees they needed.

But instead the NMW & tax credits have given businesses the perfect excuse to set lower wages and employ a huge number of people on part time jobs where before they may have had to take them on full time in order to fill the vacancy.

The mythical cleaner needs to also understand that if you only work part time then your income will therefore be less. If we implement a system whereby you get roughly the same income for working part time on NMW as you do full time then guess what....most people would prefer to work part time. That may be good for the individual but crap for the taxpayer and the economy as a whole. Before being crap for everyone when the whole thing falls on its arse.

I fear we've got way off the topic here too.

SunWukong · 11/09/2012 12:31

And how many skilled jobs do we have in this service nation that manufactures nothing and relies on selling things to its own citizens.

And how are the poor to learn new skills when they can't afford the high cost of education?.

You can't simply say that in order to get better paid work you need to became skilled, labour had a dream of having all kids in university, did that result in a nation of scientist no it resulted in people with master's degrees flipping burgers.

buttermintoes · 11/09/2012 12:50

So who do we lay off then? if NMW is increased to such levels as to need no top ups?
The labourer is semi-skilled, so already earns more and therefore would save us more, but he has a wife and a child on the way, rent to pay etc. The apprentice costs us less, but is learning skills that will make him independent for the rest of his life and, ffs, the kids need a break.
As it stands (or even if they raised the starting point of tax contributions)we are managing to keep both employed.
Who do we let go?

Shagmundfreud · 11/09/2012 13:13

"Throwing money at adults does not ensure the well being of children."

No, but providing good quality maternity care, affordable and decent housing, affordable and good quality childcare, and both support and funding for disadvantaged adults to return to education to improve their chance of making a better life for themselves and their children DOES go a long way towards improving outcomes for disadvantaged households.

And at present none of these things are a priority.

Xenia

I have read many of your posts. I do hope none of your staff are claiming means tested benefits. Housing benefit. Tax credits. Because these are only paid when the person in work is not bringing home enough to reasonably cover their living costs.

If any of your staff are claiming means tested benefits, while you enjoy a millionaire's lifestyle, I'm afraid I and many other people would come to the conclusion that you are being propped up by the tax payer.

flatpackhamster · 11/09/2012 13:28

SunWukong

And how many skilled jobs do we have in this service nation that manufactures nothing and relies on selling things to its own citizens.

Lots. We're still the seventh largest manufacturer in the world.

And how are the poor to learn new skills when they can't afford the high cost of education?.

The same way the rest of us did. I used the spare parts of my salary to pay for my masters' degree. I paid for my own technical training out of my salary (which was low). I went without so that I could educate myself and train myself. Perhaps that's just unfashionable in these days of entitlement.

You can't simply say that in order to get better paid work you need to became skilled, labour had a dream of having all kids in university, did that result in a nation of scientist no it resulted in people with master's degrees flipping burgers.

Going to university =/= getting skilled. Labour's mistake was to imagine that barriers to progress were entirely based around access to tertiary education.

amicissimma · 11/09/2012 13:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold · 11/09/2012 14:14

If the woman in your argument is unable to support her two children on her own, then she needs to earn more. That means she needs to upskill because she's doing unskilled work

flatpack if everybody was able to do that then who would do the cleaning jobs? Oh of course .........workfare. Silly me!

twoGoldfingerstoGideon · 11/09/2012 14:33

Shagmund I have read many of your posts. I do hope none of your staff are claiming means tested benefits. Housing benefit. Tax credits. Because these are only paid when the person in work is not bringing home enough to reasonably cover their living costs.

If any of your staff are claiming means tested benefits, while you enjoy a millionaire's lifestyle, I'm afraid I and many other people would come to the conclusion that you are being propped up by the tax payer.

This is the crux of it, as far as I'm concerned: extreme inequality and the determination of the very wealthy to grab as much of everything as they can while leaving the rest with crumbs.

twoGoldfingerstoGideon · 11/09/2012 14:37

flatpack (missing point of thread quite spectacularly)...
I used the spare parts of my salary to pay for my masters' degree. I paid for my own technical training out of my salary (which was low). I went without so that I could educate myself and train myself. Perhaps that's just unfashionable in these days of entitlement.

These people whose children are living in poverty DO NOT HAVE 'spare parts' in their salaries... They are already going without and cannot 'go without' any further. Why do some people refuse to accept this? It has nothing to do with 'fashion' or 'entitlement'.

niceguy2 · 11/09/2012 15:04

...who would do the cleaning jobs?

Actually lots of single people without kids. Often immigrants who come to the UK looking for anything that pays.

See the argument for the 'living wage' is based on the notion that a family can live comfortably but ignores the fact that our economy is full of people in all different stages of their lives.

So to students, single people without dependents, those just arrived in the UK or even a SAHM looking for a few extra quid, a part time cleaning job on NMW may well be very suitable.

If the cleaning company cannot find enough people suitable on the NMW then they will have to pay more money to attract potential staff.

Just because a theoretical single mum of two can't manage working part time on NMW as a cleaner doesn't mean we should legislate so that she can. A better option is to help provide her the education/training she needs to get a higher paid job.

Xenia · 11/09/2012 15:09

Martin Narey (ex head of Barnado's) in today's Times really says what I have tried to say on the thread- the benefits will feed your children but some parents often not through their own fault cannot cope and manage the money.

Even our poorest children don?t go hungry
Martin Narey
The former director of Barnardo?s Martin Narey

Published at 12:01AM, September 11 2012

Save the Children is wrong to claim that our welfare state no longer covers basic needs

Good, I thought when I heard that Save the Children was to campaign against child poverty in Britain. But I was troubled when I looked at the charity?s website and saw its claims that Britain?s poorest children are missing regular hot meals, and that their parents go hungry to feed them or cannot afford warm coats and new shoes.

Child poverty in the UK is very real, but it?s not the simple poverty that Save the Children describes. Low income is certainly at the heart of it, but it?s also about poverty of aspiration, education and parenting. But I know why Save the Children is talking about missed meals: it captures public attention. Many times when I ran Barnardo?s ? and during the five years in which child poverty was our No 1 priority ? I declined to sign up to campaigns suggesting that British families do not get enough in benefits to feed or clothe their children. I did so for two reasons: because it?s not true, but also because such campaigns suggest that if we met the very basic requirements of a hot meal and warm clothing, people would think that poverty had been lifted.

This isn?t to say that there are not emergencies when families do need urgent help with food or clothing. But they are generally short-term and caused by an administrative glitch, a marital separation, because money has been lost and sometimes, frankly, because it has been squandered on drink or drugs. Such crises are not symptomatic of the welfare state?s failure to provide families with enough money for the basics of life.

Let?s look at the income of an imaginary family of two out-of-work adults and two children, aged 10 and 15. They pay £525 a month in rent and council tax for their home. After those costs are paid, they receive a further £290 in benefits a week, which is little enough when set against, for example, the cost of utility bills. And it leaves them about £150 a week short of what the Joseph Rowntree Foundation estimates is needed for a socially acceptable standard of living. But that standard, quite properly for a family of four living outside London, includes the cost of a car as well as things such as a computer and internet access.

The picture does not get much better if the father has a full-time job at the minimum wage. Even then, they would be about £60 a week below the Rowntree reasonable income level.

Child poverty in the UK is relative, rather than absolute as in the Third World. But that doesn?t mean that it isn?t real and enduring. Recently, when I was trying to persuade a conference of doctors that benefits were inadequate for a reasonable standard of living, I was told by a GP that she could easily maintain her family on £290 a week. And for one week, or even two or three, she probably could.

But the nature of family poverty is that it is there every week and, in my experience, it is frequently made worse by debt. This is caused not by extravagance, but by taking out a loan, for instance, to replace a refrigerator or buy the children Christmas presents. A £150 loan from a company such as The Provident, paid back over four months, would attract an APR interest rate of 1,068.5 per cent.

But it is simply not the case that the welfare state no longer provides a safety net. And it is silly to claim as some do (such as Nick Cohen in The Observer who drew an absurd parallel between Britain and Africa: ?Hunger is not relative. Hunger is the same the world over.?) that this is all about lack of Tory compassion. I have never voted for Iain Duncan Smith?s party, but it is patently ridiculous to suggest that the Work and Pensions Secretary does not care about alleviating poverty.

Spending on benefits may have hit a temporary wall and may fall a little. But the magnitude of the growth during my lifetime is staggering. Last year we spent about £196 billion on benefits and pensions. In real terms, that is ten times what we spent in 1955 and 40 per cent greater in real terms than in 1999.

The real debate is about how we spend that budget. Means testing benefits such as free travel and winter fuel allowances for the elderly would allow a little more for families, particularly those where the parents work. Living in poverty when out of work is tough. Living in poverty when a parent works full time is a tragedy.

Martin Narey was chief executive of Barnardo?s, 2005-11 and formerly chaired the End Child Poverty coalition

Rosebud05 · 11/09/2012 16:55

See upthread for what a distraction from the real issues keeping going back to benefits is.

niceguy2 · 11/09/2012 17:09

Thanks Xenia. A great article from someone who you would trust has a better understanding of the challenges our society faces than your average man in the street.

He has in a nutshell summed up what I've also been trying to say too. It's a complex problem and it's not about throwing more money at benefits but how we better use what we have. I like his suggestions on free travel & fuel allowances. It also touches on what was said much earlier about debt being one of the main causes of relative poverty.

The answer is not simply always making someone else pay more money to fund whatever 'noble cause' is flavour of the week.

Xenia · 11/09/2012 18:54

(On the question above I don't employ anyone. Why would I want to take on that hassle? There is no incentive to me to do so. However I am very generous to people who do particular tasks when needed within my business and my children are too old to need childcare now. It is a massive relief to have no employees now. It was a huge hassle to have to be an employer to a nanny with all that red tape and regulations, very unfair on full time working parents).

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 11/09/2012 19:54

The answer is not simply always making someone else pay more money to fund whatever 'noble cause' is flavour of the week.

Well yes, that's a given. As you mentioned, debt is a biggy and there should be (dare I say the R word) more Regulation of high-interest rate lenders who have had a field day these past few years.

To be poor is to live on the knife's edge, your fridge breaking could be enough to push you in to a debt spiral. It astonishes me that the likes of Provident finance are better known than credit unions and much more easily accessible.

Bank account usage needs to be promoted amongst low income group and there needs to be an end to these fines charges for having an unauthorised overdraft etc. I'm sure the law forbids this anyway, it would nice for that to be actually enforced. The poor are much more likely to get fined charged by banks for various offences and that money is then used to provide free banking everyone else. It's unseemly.

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