Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

'No NHS in England from 2013'. Is there anything we can do to save it?

132 replies

Solopower · 02/09/2012 17:14

'In 2012, parliament in England passed a law effectively ending the NHS by abolishing the 60-year duty on the government to secure and provide healthcare for all. From 2013, there will be no National Health Service in England, and tax funding will increasingly flow to global healthcare corporations. In contrast, Scotland and Wales will continue to have a publicly accountable national health service.

NHS hospitals and services are being sold off or incorporated; land and buildings are being turned over to bankers and equity investors. RBS, Assura, Serco and Carillion, to name but a few, are raking in billions in taxpayer funds for leasing out and part-operating PFI hospitals, community clinics and GP surgeries that we once owned.'

Allyson Pollock in The Guardian.

Well I'm scared. Life is going to get so much harder for the vast majority of us. I'm grateful to people like Pollock and Dr Mark Porter for trying to alert us to what is happening, but what can we do about it?

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/27/nhs-privatisation-toxic-world-healthcare

OP posts:
catwoo · 03/09/2012 09:22

I don't think it is just opinion though, a piece of legislation has been or is shortly being passed which paves the way for privatisation

this chap i know has been trying to raise public awareness

CogitoErgoSometimes · 03/09/2012 09:26

It's not just the Guardian that has a particular agenda. There are some posters on MN that deliberately use the forums, not as a way of sharing genuine information and sparking debate, but as a way to spread fear and rumours in order to get support for their own campaigns. The future of UK healthcare is an important subject that deserves discussion. Frightening vulnerable people with lies presented as facts has no place

adeucalione · 03/09/2012 09:27

Interpretation of the legislation is a matter of opinion.

adeucalione · 03/09/2012 09:30

Sorry, that was to catwoo.

Agreed cogito - there was something similar on the Education forum over the weekend, a very inflammatory OP about how taxpayers money is pouring into academies so that private companies can make a profit, backed up with spurious facts that sounded wrong but were hard for the layperson to refute without spending hours researching.

Luckily, a well regarded poster who knows her stuff came on to address each point and the truth was somewhat different.

OrangeKipper · 03/09/2012 12:53

Yes, Cogito, and you're one of those people with an agenda.

I've seen you spout completely unreferenced opinion, as you on this thread, for years. And I have frequently laboriously researched and linked government data and publications showing you were factually wrong.

Only to see you repeat the same canards next time round.

Talking about the future obviously involves some speculation, but when I find someone deliberately repeating what they know are untruths... well let's just say I don't exactly take you seriously.

Here, by the way, are non-Guardian sources on the above stories - surprise, surprise, it isn't just the norty, agenda-driven Guardian reporting this stuff.

Oh, and Serco didn't just understaff, they may have cooked the books to conceal failures to meet their service level agreement.

"Out-of-hours doctors service now facing two investigations", This is Cornwall

"Trust blames Serco for spike in A&E attendance", HealthInvestor

"Private group stopped from running St Paul?s Way Medical Centre - seven years before contract ends", The Docklands & East London Advertiser

OhYouGreatGreatBritain · 03/09/2012 13:22

Just seen this from our local magazine.

"responsibilities include the transfer of public health from the nhs to the county council. We will have direct responsibility for buying many public health services."

Which has actually really shocked me, knowing how the county decides priority on other aspects of its remit. What if the CC decide that my health issues are not a priority and decides not to fund them. What about services that are accessed out of county? (for instance specialist units) How will that work? NHS are experts in health care, I'm fairly sure that my CC are not. True postcode lottery without hiding it anymore.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 03/09/2012 13:27

"I've seen you spout completely unreferenced opinion"

It's stupid to suggest that an opinion has to be referenced to be valid. There are enough copy/paste merchants labouring away on message boards and it's not only very boring to read but, as we all know, the internet is so full of unvalidated rubbish that a link can be found to support practically anything. The only agenda I have is to challenge where I think an argument is full of holes. Otherwise some will take all the crap as gospel truth and go away - as they did up-thread - feeling sick and worried.

edam · 03/09/2012 13:28

public health is indeed being transferred to councils - whose budgets are being cut rather dramatically.

Cogito, have you actually read the health bill, kept up with the latest policies from the Dept of Health, spoken to the royal colleges and patient organisations? Perhaps you shouldn't be quite so quick to assume platitudes from the government are accurate without looking under the surface.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 03/09/2012 13:31

"responsibilities include the transfer of public health from the nhs to the county council. We will have direct responsibility for buying many public health services."

Before you panic those public health services are going to include home-care for the elderly and other community-based health matters. The NHS strength is in hospital, GP and emergency care but, increasingly, the long-term conditions associated with old age no longer fit that model.

JuliaScurr · 03/09/2012 13:39

afuturethatworks.org/

if you want to defend the public sector and NHS, be there

edam · 03/09/2012 13:42

Cogito, so far the policy is to hand over public health, which means population health - STD services, action to tackle smoking and obesity and so on.

Home care is either social services or NHS depending on whether it's a health worker or someone 'employed' by the council (probably provided by a subcontractor). It's nothing to do with public health.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 03/09/2012 13:43

@Edam, are you in regaular contact with royal colleges? Hmm I don't think I'm any quicker to assume platitudes than the person who started this thread who seemed unbelieveably quick to portray a Guardian opinion piece as proof positive that we'll all be stumping up for health insurance and urging us to take to the barricades. I don't agree with that assessment and if it annoys people that I'm not just going along with the herd, nothing I can do about it.

edam · 03/09/2012 13:43

(But councils will indeed be increasingly involved as they now have a role in monitoring health services - the Lib Dems wanted councils to control the NHS as their power base is/was in local authorities.)

edam · 03/09/2012 13:45

Yes, I am in touch with the health world. Read the Act, Cogito. It's all in there.

I don't know why you are obsessed with the Guardian rather than the issue.

StealthPolarBear · 03/09/2012 13:47

This is crap and as others have said has been coming for a long time. I currently work in the NHS, soon won't and will be very sad to see it go.
And so what about this International NHS we're meant to be taking overseas? Either it's a success story or it's not

SammyB30 · 03/09/2012 14:04

Why does an interesting debate always have to turn into a slanging match? Yawn.

OrangeKipper · 03/09/2012 14:10

Yy, facts are so boring to read, Cogito. Much more exciting to just have an opinion... Which is, er, what you're criticising the original article for.

FrothyOM · 03/09/2012 14:41

There is even a rap song to help folks understand...

"These plans have been slagged by patient organisations,
charities and unions,
nursing and medical institutions.
The Royal College of GPs even joined the attack,
looked closely at the proposals
and said they were crap.
Say yes for the NHS, Andrew Lansley can suck on David Cameron's breast.
His quest is for the rich to pay less, and the poor have to stress, it'll be one big mess."

NovackNGood · 03/09/2012 16:40

Orangekipper

The ATOS contract was put in place by labour so why are you trying to blame the conservatives for the Tower Hamlets fiasco??

OrangeKipper · 03/09/2012 17:07

Eh? I'm not trying to blame the Tories for the Tower Hamlets fiasco.

And if you want more Labour-blaming fodder, check the Hinchingbrooke link above. Article being linked to try to make a pro-privatisation point is in, ahem, the Guardian. And highlights another New Labour fiasco about "a three-year 'franchising' deal to let a private company, Tribal Secta, run Birmingham's Good Hope hospital. The contract was terminated eight months early after the hospital deficit increased from £839,000 to £3.5m."

New Labour is the architect of NHS privatisation, which is why a mere change of governing party will do nothing. This has to be made an actual election issue, where votes are won or lost on the future of the NHS. At the moment it's a backroom politicians' agreement on which the voter has Hobson's Choice.

WildWorld2004 · 03/09/2012 17:11

Im in scotland so it wont affect me but im still a bit Hmm about it.

But then i thought to myself that this is the Tories we are talking about. They want to privatise everything.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 03/09/2012 17:16

Ok, I take the privatisation thing with a pinch of salt. I think there are other countries that use a combination and it works fine.

My concern is more about how things are going to work practically regardless of whether the NHS is dismantled completely as suggested here or private providers are involved in some but not all capacities.

I'm going to pick up on what was said by Viva on the first page. I believe Viva is a midwife (correct me if I'm wrong).
From working in a hospital I'm already seeing the changes. Hospitals are very much run as businesses with business managers and accountants in charge. Each dept/ward is a separate business, so if another ward want to have some drugs as they've run out we're meant to say no.

From what I see this is really problematic. Medicine doesn't stay in one department and if you are only concerned about your departments budget it has an impact on how you plan.

I'm going to use this example as I know about it, and its something that really bothers me.

The NICE guidance from November on ELCS came to the conclusion that although the cost of an ELCS was more than a planned VB, they were happy to say it was economically viable because when they calculated the cost of complications into the system of incontinence alone the difference was negligible. They came to the conclusion that they couldn't calculate all the downstream costs from the vast range of possible complications, but on balance based on the study of incontinence it was wrong to deny a woman an ELCS on the grounds of cost alone.

Fast forward to this month and the RCOG, RCM and the NCT released a joint draft guidance for Clinical Commissioning Groups to consider. And what happens? All the costs are purely on the raw cost of C-Sections, because they aren't interested in connecting the dots and are only concerned about one department. Its a very narrow minded and blinked approach to healthcare.

What happens when you separate one area from another and make a section private?

So whilst I tend to be more in the camp of CogitoErgoSometimes and don't think the guardian piece is whole accurate and I actually don't necessarily see private enterprise in the NHS as a wholey bad thing - there are definitely some areas where I see benefits of allowing private companies in, I also see there are already major management issues in running the NHS like a business with different departments even under the publicly owned umbrella. I tend to think that people are focused on the wrong problems in this debate.

My point is, I don't see that its necessarily who owns what that is the problem, but whether they actually work together and whether they actually put the right things first as priorities; patients first - not money, not targets pulled out of nowhere, not preferable outcomes according to a paper pusher, not policy and procedure over individual care, not factory production.

Health care can be run as a business, but its a very different kind of business to all others. And things need to be in place to make sure the patient always is the centre of all decisions, and not money. And thats equally true whether its publicly or privately run.

Solopower · 03/09/2012 20:12

The only thing I agree with Cogito about is that it's not fair to frighten vulnerable people with lies. So I don't.

The article I linked to may be an opinion piece but Pollock bases her opinion on facts. I agree with what she says, based on her evidence, and no-one on this thread has produced anything to set my mind at rest, to prove that this isn't happening. Whereas there have been plenty of links to facts and events which back her up.

There's always a tension between alerting people to a serious problem (so that they do something about it) and scaring them. Fwiw, I think that things are very likely to remain the same for lots of us, at least for a while. There will be some areas that are very well run and some that are a disaster, just like there are now.

But you can't get away from the facts of this. The health professionals looking after us will not be able to rely on the same pay and conditions. The treatments we get will be rationed (more than they are now). Having to pay health insurance is obviously (OK - imo) the way it's going - it's already entirely normal in lots of other countries. And for some of us it really sticks in our craw to pay taxes that, instead of going into an organisation that benefits everyone, get siphoned off by the bosses of big companies.

And Cogito, I am not urging anyone 'to take to the barricades'!

Although, come to think of it, it could be handbags at dawn for the two of us ...

OP posts:
edam · 03/09/2012 20:36

Sadly I don't think things are going to remain the same. The NHS has been ordered to cut £20bn - that's just under a fifth of the budget - over five years. It is claimed that it will all be re-invested in healthcare so it isn't a cut, bizarrely, but Primary Care Trusts, hospitals, clinics, GP surgeries and all DO have to save the £20bn before it can be reinvested (and goodness only knows in what).

This isn't scaremongering, it is real. The powers to break up and privatise the NHS are all there in the new Health Act. The power of local commissioning groups to decide what the NHS covers and what it won't are the most extreme aspect of this. If your local commissioning group, with management supplied by McKinsey's or some other big business, decides they don't want to do X or Y, they don't have to.

Swipe left for the next trending thread