Pussy Riot members sentenced

[cocolepew]

3 years, I think it was. Sorry can't link on phone.

Kladdkakka is on another thread wanting Assange free and on this one wanting pussy riot in jail. Are you only ever contrary for the sake of kladdkakka?

That's a bit nasty and below the belt, as well as being entirely made up. I was arguing on the other thread from Sweden's point of view wanting the slimy toad extradicted asap.

NOvack, I think you are confused.

"They also sang 'Lord is shit'."

Ok, please do not make the mistake thinking it is anything to do with the faith or the church or the religion. This punk group was irritating the authorities for a long time, way before anybody have heard of them in the West with their highly provocative actions highlighting the hypocrisy of the current power elite. The accusation of hurting the feelings of the faithful/church is being used to justify sentencing way above and beyond what is applicable in this case.

Look at what is happening to the opposition leaders (fabricated criminal cases against them), legal framework (recent changes to the legislation regarding NGO, protest activity, etc) and you will understand it is all directed to show to those who are thinking of making a stand - don't do it or you will pay dearly.

Well, it is to do with the Church, it can't not be (and personally I prefer to lyric 'Virgin Mary, be a feminist!' ). I think the Church responded badly and don't look especially good for what they did (basically nothing then a very belated '... oh ... and, yeah, please be merciful in sentencing them, now it's all done we find we really should be Christian and say that!'). But to say it's not about the Church makes a nonsense of what they sung.

Sorry but I disagree. Of course it is 'to do' with the church as an institution that is gaining way too much power in a secular society (religious education is widely imposed at schools, orthodox values are imposed as the only accepable for a real russian, whilst the hierarchy is hypocritically itself claiming its space above the law) but absolutely not 'the church' as a set of beliefs or a prayer house or a congregation that were offended. They were not punished because of that punk prayer was sang in an orthodox church offending the religious folk, but because of what was sung offended Putin. They could have gone back to Red Square where they performed earlier in the year and the outcome would have been the same.

I am not sure what you mean by 'the Church responded badly'. 'please be merciful in sentencing them' was not 'the response' it was damage limitation exercise after miscalculation of how the public opinion towards the institution of the church is changing after Gundyaev's antics with the disappearing watch and nano-dust and now Pussy Riot. Russian tradition is always to be merciful towards the persecuted and the Church was not seen as such after Chaplin said that they cannot interfere in the court?s decision.

I think religious people were offended, though - that's what I'm saying. It was a blasphemous song. I'm not saying that to judge or disapprove - it's just a fact.

And in a country where for a long time people were not allowed to be openly orthodox, it is going to feel complicated, surely?

I accept that the result would probably have been the same had they sung anywhere else, or without the lyrics making reference to the church.

When I say they responded badly, I mean I think that was a bad response. I agree it was a damage limitation exercise and it looks extremely cynical. I think it's really worrying.

"I think religious people were offended" - a tiny minority were, but most found the performance to be in the poor taste and nothing more (if you believe public opinion surveys). Russia is not Iran, if you walk on the street with your eyes and ears open you will find all sorts of things that will truly offend you, whilst a russian will walk past not batting an eyelid. This church is not a 'holy place' you may think of. It houses numerous trading places, a garage and car wash, you could rent a space inside it to arrange a party with a dance floor. When relics are displayed for a fee or just by being a VIP one can avoid queuing by arriving to the underground VIP entrance in your Maybach ... you get the picture I hope.

Maybe you are right.

I know Russia is not Iran; I know plenty of people would accept that all sorts of things can and should be said or done even if they don't personally like it.

But a church is a holy space. You seem to be assuming that because the Church is corrupt (which I believe it is) at the higher levels, that therefore there is nothing complicated going on, ordinary people don't care, etc. etc. It's not so simple.

One of the reasons Russian is not comparable to Iran is that Iran has used religion as a means of political and social control from the start of their repressive regime. Russia has not. Lots of people associated being able to worship openly again with greater political and social freedom. It must be incredibly upsetting and disappointing to find the Church is now up the arse of the government, but I don't think it means people don't get offended by blasphemous lyrics.

I don't like what has happened to Pussy Riot, I think it is absurd and wrong, but making out that what they did was an uncontroversial, simple anti-political protest with nothing to do with religion isn't correct.

BTW, the Church's official response was silence, unofficially, the clerics close to Kirill said in numerous interviews that the group should face the full force of the law. The problem was that there was nothing in the criminal law that they have violated, so there was a several month long "investigation" to see if something can be found to try and sentence them under. Which they did. And when the public opinion on the side of the "pussies" (as they are called now) the Church needed to do something to mitigate the damage.

Which is why I said I think it's a cynical response now.

I'm not quite sure why we're disagreeing here - all I am saying is that there is a religious element to what's going on, and that it isn't a simple situation where if you think what has happened to Pussy Riot is wrong, you must therefore be entirely on the side of their lyrics and their protest and entirely dismissive of the Church.

of course it was controversial and provocative - that is what they were aiming for - and succeeded
what i am saying is you are massively overestimating the sentiment of truly religious folk and how many people say they are orthodox but don't set a foot inside the church, cannot name any mortal sins or think catholics are not christians (this has been widely researched)

bebe, how can you tell I am 'massively overestimating' anything when all I have said is that there is an element of the protest to do with religion?

Of course some Orthodox people think Catholics are not Christians. You try and see how many people in Britain know that Orthodox Christians even exist! People are sometimes ignorant.

However, there are also people who are religious. There are people who are really troubled by what the Church is doing, and are still religious, and there are people who are really troubled by what the Church is doing and have never been religious in their lives.

I don't follow why you'd want to deny the element of religion in a protest that clearly had religious elements.

I am not denying the element of religion in their performance I am absolutely denying that the punishment is due to its offensive nature. because the performance is religius in its form but not in its message,

I find it hard to believe that Putin cares about Pussy Riot at all. I don't think they are a threat to the regime, so I don't think the sentence is to do with silencing protest. As bemybebe says, Pussy Riot have been playing and criticising Putin for a long time. The publicity that this has generated in the West with pop stars supporting Pussy Riot does not help Putin, so I doubt he would have interevened in the sentencing since this was bound to backfire.

The Church said that this sort of thing should be stopped in order not to set a precedent. Some of the charge appears to have been about religious hatred. Singing Lord is shit in a church has nothing to do with criticising Putin, and we saw a Ukrainian protest yesterday on TV where a crucifix was brought down with an electric saw. This has nothing to do with political protest against Putin. Some Russians said that Pussy Riot would not have been able to do something similar in a mosque, and on Russia Today TV they were saying that sentences in the West would have been higher. Not sure if that is really the case.

bebe, ok, I see now, I thought when you said 'please do not make the mistake thinking it is anything to do with the faith or the church or the religion' you mean all of it was not to do with religion, not just the punishment.

I can believe the punishment might have been the same had they sung something different in a different location, but which had been equally provocative about corruption.

But then, we're really guessing, aren't we? Because they didn't sing something non-religious.

russia today is a kremlin propaganda channel
btw there were no words 'lord is shit', there were words 'shit of lord' about the church leaders

text here

'had they sung something different in a different location, but which had been equally provocative about corruption'

Not sure, but I think they have been doing this before elsewhere. This wasn't their first stunt, protest or performance. But they weren't prosecuted before, because they did not offend people in a church.

Yes, they have been doing masses of things for ages, claig, but this one did make more of a stir. I'm not sure it's because of the religious element or simply the coincidence of times and places, but I don't think it makes any sense to make out religion wasn't an aspect.

sorry cannot find english translation whilst holding a very miserable two momth old

lrd it is all about the text and the context

There is an English translation on the Guardian link someone put earlier in the thread, but it does mistranslate to 'lord is shit'. I don't see how 'shit of the lord' is much less offensive, though. The lyrics as a whole are blasphemous.

bebe - what is all about the text and context?

I'm sorry, my Russian is nowhere near up to translating that, but I don't follow how it could not be offensive to religious people to sing what they sung.

This is from a Guardian article

'Pussy Riot must have offended many Russian Orthodox believers by screaming lyrics such as "Shit, shit, the Lord's shit" behind the iconotasis of the Church of Christ the Saviour. An opinion poll released by the independent Levada research group found that only 6% of Russians polled sympathised with the women and 51% felt either indifference, irritation or hostility. Similar umbrage would have been taken inside St Paul's or the Vatican. And those who doubt that may well wonder what tension would have been caused by a flash-mob invading a mosque at Friday prayers.'

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/17/pussy-riot-punk-putin-editorial?newsfeed=true

Russia isn't exactly known for widespread feminism, so I can imagine a lot of people would be irritated by the feminism as much as by the anti-religious sentiment.

But this is the point, isn't it - it's quite complicated.

Some of the US/UK media is really dodgy, IMO. There was a line in an article SGM linked to about talking absolute bollocks about the contrast between 'democratic' US divisions between Church and State and Russia 'struggling to throw off its authoritarian past'.