Verdict on workfare court case.

[carernotasaint]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/unpaid-job-schemes-not-a-breach-of-human-rights-says-high-court-8009277.html

Yes, she said she was studying and part of the course was 6 months work placement, during which her husband lost his job so she went cap in hand to JCP who said no, you can't claim JSA unless you leave this full-time workplace (thus rendering the degree unfinished/pointless).

So now she's having to work two jobs (shock horror) one at night and the training one in the day, no mention as to why her husband can't go work.

but me thinks thats miss placed entitlement right there, she thinks that the government should give her money because her husbands unemployed and she's working full-time without pay, rather then questioning the Uni courses that require you to work unpaid or be unable to finish your degree.

JSA Job SEEKERS allowance, you are meant to be looking for work, it was meant to keep people on the breadline just above water until they found something not a national ration to subsidised everyone who doesn't want to work at the moment.

Students are awful anyway I remember when I was signing on, Yes fine you paid money for a degree but that doesn't mean you should be standing in the job centre arguing that you will only apply for jobs that are relevant/linked to what you trained in, 100's trained in that too you can't all just sit on your arse until an events management job or something is advertised.

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/08/prisoners-call-centre-fired-staff?CMP=twt_fd

sun I was muddled. So she asked and was refused because she wasn't eligible? Taxpayers 1, Scroungers 0. The system worked, so what's the problem?

I don't object to people asking for things, or having 'a sense of entitlement', as you call it.

IME the people with the highest sense of entitlement are those who have a great deal in terms of money and the resources to be able to get more, such as connections and the ability and stamina to wade through bureaucracy.

The people who have the least often don't have the knowledge or energy to go after their due.

Benefits to which people in real need go unclaimed because the system is complicated, some benefits staff are unmotivated or resentful of the people they are paid to assist.

Why do you think students are awful? Do you think ambition is a bad thing? Why do you think it is wrong for a place of study to expect you to commit to a long-term course that will affect your ability to work for the duration - let's say three years - in order to benefit in the long run?

If that happened then only young people from rich families would be able to study and have access to degree-entry jobs that tend to be higher-paid and more secure.

The poor will be denied opportunities that are theirs by merit and will be largely stuck in low-paid, low-status and insecure jobs.

Hang on a minute, I think there was a report on that this morning from a paper read by some of the most entitled people in Britain

The only bit I don't agree with is the fantasy that poor students are cashing in on bursaries and grants to the detriment of 'middle and upper class' students.

They aren't. They're just not entering higher education because they fear debt.

But then that's the Telegraph for you - forever whingeing that the wrong people have the temerity to have a sense of entitlement.

If you are comfortably-off (not necessarily super-rich) you will find a way to subsidise your child - perhaps by extending your mortage or cashing in investments, because you come from a background that has experienced the value of education.

Lots of ordinary people know the value of education too, but they don't have things like mortgages or the ability to shoulder the cost of an extension. As for investments - what are they?

I think they are awful because they turn up in the job centre and refuse to apply for jobs that are not linked to the stupidness they studied in, only wanting to apply for jobs at TV companies because they did media studies etc, a job is a job if they are so picky then they obviously don't actually need the money and should sod off and scrounge off mum and dad until they get their dream job.

Got so sick of them, wave after waveof em on the job search courses refusing to apply for things in the local papers and asking for specialist publications, it's as if they think if they get a job working in a shop that automatically becomes their whole life and they will never be able to apply for work in the field they want, so they sit on their arse moaning about wanting help to find a job in what they trained in instead.

Thats why I hate them.

You can't claim JSA if you are a student on a full time course. At all. Unless it is Open University which is fine.

If you are on JSA, you are referred to the WP when you have been unemployed for 9 months (Age 18-24), 12 months (Age 25+) If you are 18 and have been NEET for 6 months you are referred at 3 months unemployed.

The only change since the tribunal hearing is that we have new letters to issue to people going on the WP that stresses the mandatory aspect of it more clearly.

www.24dash.com/news/housing/2012-08-08-Government-targets-long-term-sick-as-Work-Programme-numbers-drop-off

KashaUK2000 ? 3 hours ago
−
+
Flag as inappropriate
Work Program refuses to acknowledge people's disabilities so there are no 'reasonable adjustments' made, no consideration of what clients are capable of doing when looking at job roles or 'voluntary' work, and you're treat like a scrounger as soon as you walk through the door. That's even before you take into consideration the fact that according to the Work Program there are no economic problems and everyone is able to find work through there scheme - total denial of the problems don't make them go away, it means they treat all clients as 'dole scum' and offer no support to help us back into work.

I attended Work Program only twice before I HAD TO LEAVE for the sake of my health - my disabilities were ignored so I was told I'd lose my benefits if I was "unwilling" to apply for jobs I was unable to do or if I was unable to participate in training classes, and no allowences were made for my disability at all so I was put at risk. I was also insulted because of my disabilities and while there on multiple occasions I overheard Work Program staff members mocking other disabled clients - I've never known a place to treat people with such disrespect! I'd actually go so far as to say that the Work Program is WORSE than ATOS

Above is just one of the comments underneath the linked article. This is absolutely disgusting treatment.

The only change since the tribunal hearing is that we have new letters to issue to people going on the WP that stresses the mandatory aspect of it more clearly.

Hope Jon Snow sees a copy cos when Cathy Newman was interviewing Chris Grayling on channel 4 news back when the workfare scandal really exploded, Grayling kept insisting it wasnt mandatory!

Really? The WP has always been mandatory.

I really wish I could say what I think about the WP.

sun There's nothing wrong with looking for jobs in specialist publications. It's very sensible because you have more chance of getting one rather than having employers dismiss you at CV stage as over-qualified and likely to leave as soon as you get a better offer.

I don't know in what capacity you have experience of the unemployed but I get the impression that you somehow do.

Given that, I'm a bit baffled that you don't seem to have noticed that there aren't enough jobs to go round for anyone, let alone young people with no experience of work.

I'm also baffled that you don't seem to know that if you are on JSA and refuse to go for jobs without good reason you will be sanctioned.

I'm guessing that those JSA claimants who do that are lucky enough to have Jobcentreplus advisors who have a realistic view of the woeful job situation out there. They might even hint that. I've heard of that because they're not all monsters.

There's nothing shameful about working on a checkout, but if people with degrees were to be able to mop up those jobs, where does that leave the people who want checkout jobs? Unemployed, that's where.

When I left school it was in the recession of the early 80s. Not as bad as this one down South, but still bad for school leavers with no work experience.

I had to mark time for a year before getting onto my chosen college course so I got a secretarial job because I had shorthand and typing from school. Proper skills. My parents wanted me to get them because, having grown up in the '30s, they were scared of unemployment and didn't trust academic qualifications, even though they wanted me to get them too.

Unfortunately it took me more than three months because I also had A levels and most employers guessed correctly that I'd leave within a year even though I wasn't stupid enough to say that.

Luckily I eventually found someone who liked the idea of having a shorthand typist with A levels, but everyone else was right: I was over-qualified, had other ambitions and left in eight months.

I signed on and scrounged off my mum and dad too in the meantime. I got a job in my chosen industry just before the end of my course. That was lucky. But I was under no illusions that I was fully trained and I doubt that many of the people you bump into do either.

But it was a start and I think people like me should be congratulated on having a clear view of what they want to do with their lives and the drive to achieve it.

I do work in media btw and no, my course wasn't media studies. I'd advise anyone who wants to be a journalist now not to do that because though media is worthy of study, journalism is a very competitive industry and you need a good, conventional degree to get in.

And you do need a degree to get any professional career these days. That's not to say you need a degree to be a journalist. It's just what you need to get your foot in the door. It's also one of those Establishment careers that are dominated by Oxbridge types with connections. If you haven't got a degree, you've had it. I'd never make it these days with just A levels and I'm good.

My parents weren't rich. In case you didn't realise, many students come from humble backgrounds. That's the whole point of the drive to get people from families who've never been educated further than school into higher education.

It's called ambition and opportunity and people are entitled to have both. They're not doing it to piss you off.

We have to change the country and have more people from humble backgrounds in positions of power to help us all. Sadly, since this recession and sniping about over-entitled, uppity young people, we're going backwards with privilege becoming more entrenched in the hands of those who've always had it.

I'm sad that someone like you, who I guess comes from a background like mine - parents who left school at 14 to enter low and semi-skilled jobs, working class, council estate, state school educated - is busy treading on the dreams of other people.

The working class truly are our own worst enemies.

katie It's horrible, isn't it?

I do voluntary work advising people on their rights and how to negotiate bureaucracy in order to get what they are due.

I've had success helping some people referred to the Work Programme to get those parasites from Reed, Avanta, Maximus, Igeus etc to leave them alone.

If their bogus courses interfere with someone's legal requirement to look for work the Jobseekers' Agreement, they will eventually give up and pick on easier meat if the person argues effectively and provides evidence.

Unfortunately that's only open to the persistent, bolshy and assertive. But there are a lot more of those people about in this recession.

Grayling and Duncan-Smith are weapons grade cunts.

IDS also lied on his CV in quite a big way. That's not something I'd ever advise jobseekers to do.

I dream of interviewing Irritable Duncan Syndrome. That would be my first question after: 'how do you do?'

Back in February this year Chris Grayling fell over himself on Channel 4 news insisting that the press had got it wrong and that the work placements on the Work Programme wernt/arent mandatory even though Channel 4 news was able to produce proof that they were.

Yet when the Daily Mail and friends wrongly report DLA as an out of work benefit i dont see any ministers or anyone from the DWP going on tv or radio to correct this. Disabilism in action!

I hope they make her work in poundland for another 6 mounths cheeky mare

This is the legacey that was left by labour a genartion who think their just entilted to benafits and all that should be expected of them is roits and scraching of the arse

they should make her go door to door to see if any one wants any work done makes me sick

And so what if they are mandoroty they are taking my hard earned tax

Why should you only do it if you want has the would gone mad maybe we should only pay benfits if we want how about that

Maybe it breaches my human rights to hand over tax money to laybaouts

Mrbojangles, you do know that people on benefits pay tax as well, don't you? And I'm sure you understand that there are lots of different taxes, not just income tax?

If you are so angered by exploitation of taxpayers, I'm sure you must be very angry at companies using workfare to get labour on the cheap instead of creating jobs. And at companies like A4E exploiting the taxpayer by pretending to find jobs for the unemployed. Billions of pounds handed over to scroungers - only these are scroungers in suits who have contracts with the government.

Really what tax would that be if they get tax from money they havent eared they i the tax payer am being taxed twice

Once on my money then you give it to some spoilt entiled student then tax it again

You sound as if you think you personally are funding HM Treasury. Don't be so begrudging - it could be you in need of support one day. All it takes is one accident, one stroke of bad luck and you could be out of work, ill, disabled... it could happen to any of us tomorrow (God forbid).

I assume you've heard of taxes apart from income tax? Little inconsequential things like council tax? VAT? Car tax? Petrol duty? Everyone pays tax every time we receive money and every time we spend it. (You may assume people in receipt of benefits do not pay council tax. In fact, council tax relief is extremely complicated, lots of people still have to pay council tax even on very low incomes, and the government is cutting relief by handing the system over to councils and telling them to make it up themselves - and cutting the money councils have to spend at the same time.)

Edam is right. My 62 year old DH and i got our letter about the council tax changes this week.

Mrbojangles1Fri 10-Aug-12 20:38:57

Really what tax would that be if they get tax from money they havent eared they i the tax payer am being taxed twice

And people in their 30s 40s 50s who now find themselves on Jobseekers and having to do work placements for their benefits after up to 30 years in the workplace and paying NI have actually paid for those benefits TWICE. Because they have paid NI AND are being made to work for those very same benefits that they have paid NI for!

Is an incoherent, ill-informed, badly-spelled rant the best you can add to this debate mrbojangles?

Oh dear.

If I were you, I'd be less concerned with railing about other people and more worried about my own prospects of employment in the very real event of redundancy or company failure in a fiercely competitive jobs market.

I do not get much of an impression most benefit claimants are being made to work for their benefits and that's a shame.

After a stint on workfare in 2000 doing a month in a charity shop and two months in a council office those delightful people at Reed/Pelcombe wanted me to do another three months workfare in a soup factory. Luckily i found a night job in a sex chatline office so was able to sign off. So after workfare i ended up with a job in the sex industry. Whats your point Xenia?

Mrbojangles have you read any news articles about this woman. She wasnt lazing about doing nothing. She was volunteering in a museum. She was doing something for her benefits & maybe if she had been allowed to carry on doing that job she might have gotten a paid contract out of it.

Instead she had to leave that position to go to poundland for two weeks. Everyone who knows the workfare program knows that there was no possibility of a job interview or job at the end of the two weeks because poundland along with all of the other companies involved do not intend on employing these people because they would lose the money they get paid for taking on these people from the jobcentre.

limitedperiodonly

you shouldn't be claiming JSA if you are going to be so picky and when I was signing on you got sanctioned for refusing to apply for 3 jobs you where told to by the JC or for refusing one job offer.

you can get out of that easy without flat out refusal, claim to be racist in the interview, cover your suit in whiskey so you stink etc, I know loads of people who have done things like that to get out of the job centre forced applications.