More Euope-wide gender gap proof

[tonton]

We women do better at school but we're still way worse off when it comes to pay.
\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4785824.stm\gender_gap}

In school, they dont teach you to believe that you are the best at your job, and that you have the right to a top salary, or you'll leave and go somewhere where you are better appreciated. They dont teach you to bargain about pay and conditions.

More men know this without being taught, than women, and until we women get more confident in our own abilities, we'll carry on being paid less. Nobody rewards the person who works hardest, they reward the person who brings their hard work to the boss's notice.

That's so true nightynight. I've thought a lot about this as a mother of a daughter (soon to be 2 daughters). I've seen less, or equally able men scoot ahead of me and it's not onlyu because I have a child. It's taken me years to develop the kind of confidence that's needed to negotiate for more money etc. But I'm still not so great at the politics!

It is also down to the very crappy careers advice given to girls - after all can you see a 50yo male telling a 14yo girl she would make a brilliant engineer/fighter pilot/nuclear physicist?

.It is also down to the very crappy careers advice given to girls
Agreed 100%

after all can you see a 50yo male telling a 14yo girl she would make a brilliant engineer/fighter pilot/nuclear physicist?

Well, I'm 45...
You sure you're not being sexist ?
Most careers teachers are female, so if you want to slander a sex, you're pointed in the wrong direction.

I've spent non trivial time on women who have the opportunity to wise up in their careers.
If I'm going to be honest, being a bloke is an advantage. Most women don't have high skill careers, a woman trying to explain the advantages of an IT job would have less credibility.

The media have a lot more blame here, than 50yo careers teachers. look at the fate of a girl with education in a soap. Never ends well, no friends, she is alienated and ends up in a crap job anyway.

Look at the images of skilled workers in the media, all male, all are portrayed as low status and socially defective.
Even the BBC crusade of showing how women can get into a skilled job are at least partly counter productive. Few people or either sex want to fight to overcome prejudice and girls are especialy sensitive to being seen as "odd".

But the core of the issue is being lied to by mostly female teachers. They encourage girls to do rote learning subjects like languages which have no job value. They cannot fail to know the truth that a mediocre level of skill in (for instabce) Excel is worth more than a degree in French.

It was my experience with my careers advisor DC, but that was a while ago, not saying how long though. Agree with the rest of what you say.

I am stunned by what you say here Dominiconnor.
I do not lie to girls.
I do not encourage only girls to do languages.
I encourage those (boys and girls equally) with a particular talent for the subject and advise of the many benefits t be gained from an all-round education.
I do not agree at all that a mediocre level of skill in Excel is worth more than a degree in French.
Sorry but that is pure nonsense.

And to suggest that teachers are actively, malisciously LYING to children is rot.

Bizarre views.

is the figure of "1/3rd holding mangerial jobs" out of all women - or just those that work???

I for one wouldn't want a mangerial job even if I was offered the earth to do it - just not my cup of tea - prefer 'getting my hands dirty' than managing stuff.

As for the comment by DC about languages - a girl I went to school with is now laughing her way to the bank working as a freelance translator and intrepretor (sp) across Europe.

And with the multinational companies that most large companies are these days being able to converse fluently (and write) in those langauges can often be quite desirable.

And to suggest that MFL is a rote learning subject displays a clear ignorance of the subject.
No job value? You are joking.
Sorry, you may see I don't agree!

Back to the issue of inequality - one area which is hugley to blame is the lack of opportunity after starting a family to take on part-time responsibility posts. Most employers want management to be there 5 days a week plus and are totally infelxible with regards to job-sharing / part-time status.

In DC's defense I think what he was roughly saying is that engineering isn't seen as a career choice for girls but languages are and that careers advisors, among other influences on young girls, perpetuate that myth. Maybe 'misinformed' would be a better word than 'lied'.

Perhaps that was the sentiment.
It's still nonsense in my view.
Even if teachers do this subconsciously, it is one minor element in the debate.
Children make career decisions far more based on the own family as role models than teacher advice.

and as you're probably tell by my last 'paragraph' in my previous post I certainly didn't do an English degree LOL.

PS I HATE all this "Have to go to university" crp. WHY do we all have to go to university? Some vocations are better sutied to vocatioinal qualifications - NVQ's and the like - yes level 1's and 2's may be relatively straighforward, but 3's and 4's and bl*dy hard work.

And what good does a degree really do someone who wants to be a mechanic or builder???

Rowlers - I really don't think that careers advice at school is a minor influence. Unless it has been scaled down enormously since my day.

HRH - agree totally that vocational careers are massively undervalued these days. Especially as anyone can buy a degree for a few quid, and a lot of the legitimate degrees offered at uni are rubbish and certainly won't lead to a decent job.

I remember applying for Uni's 9yrs ago or so (just after they started turning techincal colleges and the like in "universities") and laughing that for some Uni's to study my chosen course (Business Studies and Geography) I would have needed something like 2 D's at A level - one even had 1 E as the requirement ! (incidently although I was accepted for 4 Uni's I never actually went )

Careers guidance (as it's now called) is certainly a part of the equation and has an importnat role to play but I genuinely believe that family background plays the biggest role. Parents expectations of their children is more influential by far.
I say this having seen children of degree level educated parents doing A levels and usually going to "university" and children of window cleaners leaving school at 16 to become window cleaners.
It happens all too often.

Well I am sure that enthusiastic, inspired careers advice from a trusted and respected teacher must have a big influence and I am sad that this is yet another failing of the British education system.

I fondly remember my male careers advisor suggesting to me, the top student in the damn school, that I should do a secretarial course so I would have 'something to fall back on'. I will treasure forever the look of shock on his face as I launched into one of my protofeminist rants and kept him pinned to his seat for half an hour.

Callisto - we had a fabulous careers teacher (female) at school - and TBH I don't think she made a real impact on anyone. The one girl who wanted to be a Micro-biologist - went off to study Micro-biology (staight into 2nd year in Edinburgh after Cambridge turned her down - this was a girl with 10 A's at Scottish Highers, and 6 A's at A levels - and extremely talented musician - now a PhD student in Molecular Pathology),

I ummed and aghhhd over what I wanted to do, friend who wanted to join the army, being a gamekeeper, double bass player, tree surgeon or agriculturist (and finally went to Agricultural College) - is now selling very expensive properties in Hertfordshire - nothing like what she was 'advised' to do.

I know "families" of Dr.s, family's of policemen/women, families of factory workers etc etc.

I do not lie to girls.
I do not encourage only girls to do languages.
I apologise if I gave the impression that all teachers lie to kids. Merely enough do to screw up the lives of millions of girls.

I have encountered quite a number of women quite bitter that they didn't get told that languages were less useful than woodwork. My wife was fed this crap as well, fortunately dhe didn't fall for it.

I do not agree at all that a mediocre level of skill in Excel is worth more than a degree in French.
Why not ?
Here's an experiment. Look in a collection of job ads of your choice. Any, I don't care.
Look at quoted money. Not good is it ?
Actually, I've made it sound simple, and to be honest it's a really tough experiment. finding jobs that ask for French is really very hard isn't it ? Of the few one finds, they are either in teaching or as a secretary.

And to suggest that teachers are actively, malisciously LYING to children is rot.
Well what do you call it when someone says something that they must know to be false ?

Wishful thinking on my part I guess.

Look at quoted money. Not good is it ?

Oh - so it's all about money is it?? Personally I'd rather my kids be happy and 'comfortable' - then unhappy and in a fantastically well paid job. DH and I both love our jobs (despite their downsides) but neither of us get paid that well.

DC your argument is embarrasingly fundamentally flawed and simplistic.
So you suggest that the majority of teachers other than me, lie to children. Please. Get real. Millions of girls lives have been screwed up by this lying? I just can't take you seriously.
Your suggestion that French is only useful for teaching and secretarial work is deeply ignorant. In fact, employment rates of language graduates are amongst the highest of all subjects, second to Veterinary science and medicine.
Language graduates are perfectly capable of learning how to use bloody Excel - how patronising to suggest Excel is beyond language graduates.
Language graduates do not necessarily end up working directly with languages. Many become lawyers, work in business, work overseas, in law etc etc. These jobs are advertised to GRADUATES, not just French graduates. Graduates are often recruited and do not gain employment by looking in the local paper you know.

You wrongly assume teachers to KNOW that what YOU suggest is the TRUTH.
Because your wife found woodwork more useful than languages hardly can be taken as yardstick for the whole nation.
I'll say it again, your views are bizarre.
Strangely, I don't think you'll agree with me.
But you often get that with ignorance.
Whatever you say, your agument can be picked apart in a flash.

So you suggest that the majority of teachers other than me,
Not sure if it is a majority.

Millions of girls lives have been screwed up by this lying?
Why do girls choose subjects that are less demanding and which offer such poor job prospects ?
Are you satying that wage disparity is because girls are less smart ? Surely not ?

Your suggestion that French is only useful for teaching and secretarial work is deeply ignorant.
Well there's spying on N.African states, or the evil regime in Quebec.
But seriously, my point is that there is massive over supply of French skills, as reflected in what people earn from it.

In fact, employment rates of language graduates are amongst the highest of all subjects,
A valid data point. A better one is earnings, I never doubted that they found something to do, I merely observe that they don't get paid much. "Would you like fries with that" comes to mind, or "take a memo Miss Jones".

Language graduates are perfectly capable of learning how to use bloody Excel - how patronising to suggest Excel is beyond language graduates.
Quite the reverse. I've taught artsgrads Excel, almost anyone who can read can learn it. Most people don't bother, hence there is an unfulfilled demand for good Excel people. I rather suspect that the largest group of Excel speicalists may weel be language grads. But that's in spite of languages, not because of them.
But as it happens Excel has depths, deep depths, enough that MS asked me to plumb said depths for them because they're well, ummm errr deep.

Language graduates do not necessarily end up working directly with languages.
So what's the point ?

Many become lawyers,
But rarely city lawyers. Country practice is really badly paid.

These jobs are advertised to GRADUATES, not just French graduates.
As I said, it does very little for you.

Graduates are often recruited and do not gain employment by looking in the local paper you know.
Indeed, I did not specify "local papers", you aren't apying attention. Try the Guardian, if anything is going to ask for languages it will be there. Financial Week doesn't have many jobs with languages for instance.
You wrongly assume teachers to KNOW that what YOU suggest is the TRUTH.
You may be right here. Not sure about the capitals. Don't start me on the nature of truth...

Because your wife found woodwork more useful than languages hardly can be taken as yardstick for the whole nation.
I know a lot more people who make good money out of carpentry than languages.
DC your argument is embarrasingly fundamentally flawed and simplistic.
So you suggest that the majority of teachers other than me, lie to children. Please. Get real. Millions of girls lives have been screwed up by this lying? I just can't take you seriously.
Your suggestion that French is only useful for teaching and secretarial work is deeply ignorant. In fact, employment rates of language graduates are amongst the highest of all subjects, second to Veterinary science and medicine.
Language graduates are perfectly capable of learning how to use bloody Excel - how patronising to suggest Excel is beyond language graduates.
Language graduates do not necessarily end up working directly with languages. Many become lawyers, work in business, work overseas, in law etc etc. These jobs are advertised to GRADUATES, not just French graduates. Graduates are often recruited and do not gain employment by looking in the local paper you know.
You wrongly assume teachers to KNOW that what YOU suggest is the TRUTH.
Because your wife found woodwork more useful than languages hardly can be taken as yardstick for the whole nation..
Whatever you say, your agument can be picked apart in a flash.
I opened a door specifically for you to do that. I asked you to point to a pool of jobs that were not for secretaries and asked for French.
Either
a) You tried and failed but chose to ignore the result
b) You didn't try.

I suppose that's the gulf between us. Not different views on the utiilty of a subject, but how we work out the truth. I like version of the truth where I can objectively find resiults, not restrict myself to those which agree with me.

Clearly you enjoy twisting statements to your own advantage.
You clearly have a high opinion of your debating skills with little to back you up.
However, a few points.
I am not clear how you get from ">Millions of girls lives have been screwed up by this lying?" to
"Why do girls choose subjects that are less demanding and which offer such poor job prospects ?
Are you saying that wage disparity is because girls are less smart ? Surely not ?" - How have you decided that languages offer poor job prospects? Where is your evidence? When / How did I infer that girls are less smart? Answer = I didn't.
Your "quip" about North Africa / Quebec has ignored the reality of language graduates' areas of employment. Poor joke and again, complete lack of evidence to support your claim.
Can you prove to me please that language graduates don't get paid much? Again, you like to think you can make clever jokes but it's pure unsubstantiated rubbish.

I presume by MS you mean Microsoft? Name dropping here are we? You are coming across as an individual deeply self-impressed. Go and play with Excel all you like. You are still not proving anything here at all.
If you can't understand the point of learning languages then you are not trying very hard. Cleary if one ends up working with the language they have learnt directly, then great. The point being that language skills are transferable, that language graduates have a huge amount of desirable skills gained from their degree, not just the ability to speak French. You have misunderstood my point completely. Language graduates aren't limited to applying only for jobs which specify "French" in the job description.
Where is your proof that language graduates do not become city lawyers but work in "country practice" and what the hell does that matter anyway?
Again, your own personal experience, which I must say seems extremely narrow as you mention woodwork / carpentry and Excel only, seems to be a ridiculously poor example to be using in this "argument". So what if you know a load of carpenters and not many French graduates? What does that prove? To me it proves that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
You aked me to point to a pool of jobs - well I did give quite a few examples. You are somehow using this "asking specifically for French" as a benchmark of how many jobs there are.

You keep talking about the truth. What truth? Your truth? Where are your facts? All I can see is personal anecdote.
I have never heard anyone in academia ever claim that langauges are an easy option. Far from it. In fact plenty of research will prove the exact opposite - that languages are often not chosen as they are considered more difficult subjects. National data which I work with on a daily basis proves this.
I have not come accross someone so determined to argue with absolutely nothing to back it up with.
Don't bother to respond as I won't be reading it.

Sorry to everyone who may read this thread and think it might be an interesting discussion of the original point.
I may well have ruined it by responding to DC.
I have learnt my lesson.

Again DC, you do not actually know what you are talking about. Nowadays, most teachers do not give careers advice. That is the role of careers advisors / connexions officers.

In 8 years of teaching, in 4 schools and as a head of year 9 and manager of the school's PSHE programme, I have never been asked to give careers advice. In fact I am specifically told not to give it. I have no expertise - and have not been trained.

Don't blame the teachers, we are not allowed to advise the students. Connexions / Careers officers do that.

Please research your facts before you make false claims.