Why do so many of our olympic athletes come from public school?

[ivykaty44]

and what would you do to change it?

Everyone knows that to be successful in the Olympics you need to be able to afford steroids. Generally speaking the price of steroids is quite low but parents (most likely single) from council estates would struggle to prioritise steroids over and above their Heat magazine, Lambert & Butler and Lambrini. Genuinely no stereotyping there; I've seen it with my own eyes by reading about it in the papers.

Unless council estate muckers are going to put their kids first and juice them up to the gills from the age of 6 like they do in Russia, the Olympic teams will be reserved for the privileged few.

FrothyOM - I think you are doing the armies of unpaid parents coaches a disservice. They are the ones that help get kids started. At later stages, it may well be that paid coaches make the difference - but first of all the interest needs to be generated. Both the rugby club and the cycling club that ds goes to wouldn't exist without all the parents coaching, doing registration, running roaces, organising games etc without receiving a penny.

SchrodingersMew - that's sad :( Ds is about to start secondary and is really looking forward to it. I hope really enjoys it - for both the sporting and academic opprtunities it will offer him.

Hattifatner -- my DCs' experience of an American state (public) high school sounds similar to your experience of school in SA. They had daily PE and in addition the school offered interscholastic cross country running, cheerleading (yes, ) drill (another ), field hockey, American football, golf, 'soccer', swimming, diving, tennis, volleyball, basketball, gymnastics, wrestling, baseball, lacrosse, softball, badminton, track and field and water polo, all coached by teachers.

Field hockey (girls), American football (boys), gymnastics (girls), wrestling (boys), baseball (boys) and softball (girls) were single sex but the rest were either mixed teams (cheer and drill) or teams were for both boys and girls separately. Coaching was part of the teachers' contracts on top of teaching. Teachers who did not coach a sport led clubs (knitting, bird watching, etc). One year DS had the maths teacher who was the head coach of the boys' basketball team. Another year his English teacher was the 'LaX Bros' coach.

In the US, the existence of Title IX and sports scholarships to university for both boys and girls has made a huge difference to girls' participation. And the attitude of doing as opposed to sitting and watching others doing played a part too.

I disagree about the steroids from age six but assume your post was a sendup, Vinny - 'I've seen it with my own eyes by reading about it in the papers'

all activites from mother & toddler groups brownies music lessons, chess club football etc etc cost money and your time either being there or taking and fetching minimum seems to be £2 a week plus transport costs, while for brownies football etc there is almostly cetainly one within 5 miles, for more specialist things it is bound to be further away

apart from schools, for a child to excel they need parents willing and able to take to practice etc, several times a week, this sometimes seems to mean getting up at 5.30am driving 20 miles training coming home changing going to school coming home doing homework bed by 8.30 so can get p and repeat next day, also need to be willing and able to transport to matches fixtures etc, which will become further and further afield as gets better, county wide then countrywide

There maybe other siblings to consider it might be in super swimmers best interests to spend every weekend at swimming fictures but that may well be to detriment of little brother / sister either they do same sport in same place or does it become impossible for them to choose different sport or hobby

Andy Murray went to state school his mother coached him, his brother jamie is also good but there is a third brother, he is supportive of Andy but he may not have thought it that fair when younger being dragged around tennis tournaments which pay peanuts in prize money so even if wim whole tournament it does not cover costs,

excelling at anything often requires investment up front for unknown returns, some less risk than others paying for medical degree not much risk but most who train for any sport only to so at club level as hobby extra to day job, very very few will every earn enough from it to earn living, that is why sponsorship vital and removal of it without results

I think school should always offer competitve sport from early age ( speaking as someone who was nearly always last in sport) as well as other things that are good exercise like dancing

you can win and acknowledge winners without making others feel bad, we can not all be winners at everything. I would never let my 3 year old win everytime we play, I do let her win often, learning to lose as well as win graciously is best learnt early

Well I'm of the opinion that private schools can be as bad for sport as they are good since if a child doesn't get chosen for a squad very early on they can often be totally ignored, also some schools have children they put in for every sport instead of encouraging everyone.

Having said that, I think the schools can be strong because expectations are high, commitment to training and matches is expected and the children are encouraged to compete against other schools and thats good for their sporting skills.

Equipment is expensive- rowing boats don't come cheap, sailing kit and sailing doesn't come cheap, cycles are expensive, tennis coaching is expensive, chauffering around to clubs/meets/games/training is expensive in terms of time and petrol, and it is no good if mum and dad are also trying to hold down full time jobs.

I was always very interested in the support which David Beckham's family gave him when he was growing up- no public school background there, just motivated and organised parents, supporting a talented child. Its a shame he just ponces about Hello magazine instead of encouraging youngsters like he once was.

It is also interesting that the forces seem to be producing talented and committed sportswomen.

I imagine elite athletes go to private schools because the schools offer them free/ heavily subsidised places because they are a great form of advertising!!

Out of interest, how much does it cost for a family to seriously support a premier league football team these days?

i think some people on this thread have a very fortunate experience of state school.
where i grew up any club would be viewed with suspicion. 'the lads' might get away with a bit of football or boxing but for girls there was no decision whether to do sport or not, it just wasn't an option i was aware of as a child.

i was ripped to shreds cause my parents encouraged 'days out' when we went to safari parks and nature trails stuff, generally people on my estate did not do 'extra-curricular' activities. my parents also encouraged me to go to Guides which was VERY good for me but i kept it secret and hid my uniform or i'd have been ribbed for that too.

i broke out of that upbringing and went to uni and am pleased to say that i am seeing more kids out at the running track or bmx park these days (when i was young skate parks were full of drugs and drink, no actual skating).

the opportunities ARE there for kids from less priviledged backgrounds to do sport at a high level but MOST kids from deprived backgrounds don't know that it's even an option, it's not even slightly in their universe.

I think that , sadly , you have had a very unfortunate experience maybenow

i went to a pretty rough school but not the worst in my city by A LONG WAY... i think that in the same way most people who earn a professional salary don't realise how low the AVERAGE national wage is, or what it's like to be on minimum wage, most people who had a good school experience don't realise how basic the AVERAGE school experience is.

Agree CaptainHastings

Dcs school is not a sports specialist nor particularly wealthy, nut does have lots of sports clubs. They have a few national level athletes in running, kayaking and badminton. Their cheerleading squad made the UK finals and world championship for Robot Wars (not a sport I know ).
Nothing shocked me more when my decidedly unsporty dd joined the girls rugby team.

I think this is why London 2012 is so inspiring - gb is finally investing in sports and sports facilities using lots of grants and lottery funding. Personally speaking, I am delighted that the Olympic park is situated in a very deprived area of London (close to where I grew up) excellent facilities which will hopefully be made available to local kids of all backgrounds. The first job to get people competing at this level is to make them want to do sport in the first place so watching the Olympics happen on your doorstep is a pretty good start.

I work in the social care field and have done a bit of digging as wanted to find olympians who were in care and came up with quite a few Brits, so I don't necessarily think that you can only get into sport if you are public school educated. And I would hope that 2012 means that more ad hoc talent spotting (ie among schools) will be happening too. There's no point investing in sport unless you can find the raw talent to invest in.

A premier league season ticket is £700-£1k a year for adult, that's without factoring in travel etc.

One point made on the radio today was that private schools do offer sports bursaries to talented kids... I think for example Tom Daley was offered full bursary after being bullied in the state school. So being privately educated doesn't mean the parents paid for it.

Also there is a very well renowned dive centre near where we are that every year 6 child in quite a wide surrounding area has had a letter home inviting them to try diving for free.

They have also been out 'testing' kids and those that passed basic balance tests etc got a further letter inviting them to try out for free.

Dd would love to dive, but can't find any lessons near us.
Football clubs are very proactive in finding young talent and have scouts out for boys as young as 6 or 7.

I went to comp in one of the poorest areas in this country, I started my teaching career in some of the lowest achieving schools in the country , I do not think that represents the average experience of school children in this country , Just as I don't think the independent schools I have taught on represent the average ,

Greg Searle on tonight's Newsnight said that half of the rowers were state educated. Where we live most of the state schools offer rowing and a lot offer sailing as well. It is affordable and accessible. Ds is keen to row and will start at a local club when he is 9. If he enjoys it then he can go on to another local club's junior development squad (that has gone on to produce Olympic champions). A number of our local state school compete at Henley every year.

Someone a long way above mentioned Tom Daley being bullied. On other threads in other parts of the site people have mentioned their DCs being made fun of/bullied for being obviously good at something. Whatever school you are in, private or state, if you see others being bullied for being exceptional you are hardly going to try to stand out. And even if it's out of school it will become known.
Perhaps removing the attitude that being exceptional at something means that you are fair game for bullying might help?

there were a couple of girls in my state school that were running 100metres in 12.5-13 seconds without training the games teacher really encouraged them and they did a bit when aged 12 but by 13 it was not cool to train or anything she said they had real potential but whether it was laziness, not fitting in with in-crowd any more ( though think they were more likely crowd leaders/ bullies than likely to be bullied )or what i am not sure but they refused to run for school, house team or anything

maybe they knew there would be no support from home or maybe it was culture/ ethos that really trying at anything was futile

I noticed that a lady further up the thread spoke of her neice in Glasgow getting in to rowing.

I told my husband about this thread and he said that he'd popped along to that club when he was about 14 to see if he liked it. It was made very clear to him that if he didn't have the funds they would be waived - they just wanted young people to join in and enjoy it. He didn't. He did however (and does) excel at golf with a handicap of 4. An elitist sport? Not in Glasgow it would seem, he mostly taught himself on the course at Alexandra Park and did a runner every time he saw the course keeper.

I very much believe that in addition to parenting styles, a lot of it lies in where you grew up. Golf in Scotland? Easy peasy - where we live now? 50 pounds a round. I grew up on the scottish isles and everyone could sail. Get many sailers in Coventry? Where we live now I'd be happy for my boys to be out cycling, through central london? Not so much. Rock climbing in Yorkshire? Of course, perhaps not so much in Norfolk. Want to learn to ski? There are loads of very cheap "learn to ski" deals if you live in the north of scotland, not much use to you if you're in Cornwall.

Personally I think the shadows of the stadium and associated buildings cast over some of the poorest places in london is just another awful kick in the metaphorical nuts. "Free sports", only if you can go looting for some trainers. Don't even get me started on the cost of a bike for the velodrome. For some of these youngsters you may as well ask them to take their own pony to Greenwich.

Actually, maybe loads of people with premier club football season ticket went to private school, (As opposed to people who support via TV), so I'm not sure where I am going with that, except to say that many (most?) Olympic sports cost less to participate in than buying a premier league season ticket.

Anyway, with the unscientific help of google, I have come up with a new stat!

According to the Telegraph, they could determine the educational background of 440 of the 542 athletes, and of these 88 were privately educated.

Assuming that it is difficult to become an Olympic athlete with a household income of less than £38,000 because of lack of spare cash, only 35% of UK households have this kind of income. www.guardian.co.uk/society/datablog/interactive/2012/jun/22/how-wealthy-you-compared

7% (percentage of people attending private schools)
---------------
35% (percentage of people earning over £38K). (Assuming that all children at private schools come from households in this group).

is 20%.

So, infact, if you are agree that most Olympian athletes have been supported by parents rather than schools, it's a really unsurprising statistic.

Interesting that Cameron is worried about it though. Is he going to

a) Give every state school in Britain a free download of Chariots of Fire to inspire them?
b) Increase accessibility of sports to lower income families by increasing funding.

Hmmm.

I haven't read everything, but the sports in which GB is doing well seem to be those that require some money and equipment (swimming, rowing, cycling); a lot of sports do not. By and large, poor kids don't play tennis, either, or lacrosse. If you read Running with the kenyans, the point that is made there over and over is that kenyans are brilliant at running because they are so physically active as children - all the key stuff is laid down before the age of 14. The problem here is that the vast majority of our children are physically inactive - it's not even about sport or activities - and this is partly a class issue. It stands to reason that a lot of athletes are middle class - their parents take them to things, sign them up for stuff etc. You can be pretty sure that Dibaba wasn't wealthy (she is now!)...

just as an aside, I played hockey at my state school, and was able to row at the local (council run) club. Sadly I was too short to be any good at rowing :(

Can we establish a statistic for how many kids go to private secondaries, specifically? I think 7% is everyone age 4-16, but it's more like 3-4% for private primary & more like 12-15%(? seen that claimed on MN, anyway) for private secondary, especially 6th form college.
When I compiled stats upthread I only looked at secondaries to classify someone as privately ed.
15% would still mean 3x over-repped from private sector, but not as bad as 7x over-repd if 7% stat is used.

I object to statements that cycling takes THAT much money. Brad Wiggins & Mark Cavendish don't come from remotely wealthy backgrounds. Wiggins grew up on a London council estate (he got into cycling because his football-playing mates got into crime) & Cav left school (his local comp) with only basic qualifications, worked in a bank for 2 yrs after leaving school to save up & plan how to turn pro.

Try the stats here for numbers in private schools. There is a big influx into 6th forms.

And the DofE raw data here shows numbers in maintained schools too, by age.

The numbers in private 6th forms could be as much as 20% (depending on definitions).