Private schools have lost their moral purpose - says head of Wellington

[RelaxedAndCalm]

here

"Leadership from the independent sector has been sadly lacking and it has failed to provide an inspiring moral vision for us in the 21st century."

I wonder if this will lead the Charities Commission to rethink their stance re charitable status.

A school near me closed down this year because of low uptake of places - ofsted 'good', but in a mixed area with a competeing CofE school and with a very wealthy area mixed with a fairly disadvantaged one. If all the people who lived in the posh bit of catchment had stopped screeching in horror at that school and sent their children there, it wouldn't have needed to close. I'm not convinced the state system is 'swamped' - just some bits of it are, for often rather dubious reasons.

flatpack you are inserting political views into where there aren't any. Check out PISA credentials - they are no more leftish than rightish.

The point is, actually, if you read a bit harder -- that state SCHOOLS are doing perfectly well. Where the children of the poorer sectors are FAILED is in the system that creates inherited poverty with lack of educational environment in poorer families. As far as i know most righties would recognise the need for the bright and the hard working to make it. In England as we know it, this does not happen.

Ah, that's why I'm playing D's A. I know there's a thread over in Education about there being 500 places short in Croydon alone for this Sept.

I guess if you're in leafy suburbia or in the country, you're more likely to have a CofE VC or VA school which is rated Good or Outstanding, but it's as usual the (poor) inner city schools which will struggle even more if there's a mass exodus of Indy parents.

Mama:

"HAve you looked at the results of the global PISA tests and the separate paper on the situation in the UK (www.pisa.oecd.org/​dataoecd/33/8/46624007.pdf) which indicates that:

• UK has one of the greatest gaps in results between the state and the private sector schools

UNTIL you take into account the socioeconomic background. After that, it turns out that the state schools achieve considerably better results."

Have you notice that PISA STOPPED using the 'results' under New Labour because they were so cooked.
You can differentiate and allow for anything.

I am sure it is 'not good' for children to be so driven and spoon fed and directed as they are in private school. I am absolutely sure that the 11A* DD got are not realistic and she was maxed out in performance. I know that had she gone to a state school where adolescents are required to 'self-actualise' the more likely result would be a few As and a good bunch of Bs and that it is all very 'unfair' and 'not a level playing field'.

But I don't care, and nor does China, and nor does India. The private schools do the job they are given, which is to maximise results in a system (school) that tests the ability of children to remember facts.

Which gets them access into the tertiary education where their true intelligence structures (the ability to conceptualise, working out original solutions, design) comes into play.

And the fact that the state school fails to get them there, is ENTIRELY the fault of state schools, and their parents, so stop blaming the people who are prepared to invest fairly seriously in this process, and learn from them.

I am in a similar area, and am struck by the unwillingness of parents in the state sector, to pay anything for their children's future that has to come out of their own pockets. It seems to be something 'the government'/'the council' 'should' 'be doing'. From whingeing about bus fares, to psychometric or educational psychology testing.

Things that private school parents pay unhesitatingly for, state parents are hard work to persuade. And the psp have a v reg Volvo in their drive, and the sp have BMWs, so it isn't a monetary thing, it seems to be a culture thing. A lack of imagination or appreciation.

The way the state system fails children has long make me furious. It is a complete triumph of ideology over the hard facts of life, it is patronising, and it is neglectful. It is a waste of talent and a waste of opportunity and it really hurts this country. I can't tell you how many kids I have tested who are unbelievably bright (in jail, too) but NOBODY noticed them, or cared and nobody intervened. And that is not the fault of the teachers, but the system. So I will stop contributing.

If I was Attila the Hen, I would privatise the whole bloody lot, give the schools power over parents (ie go to parenting lessons and learn to support other adults in a united front or the consequences will be cut benefits), cut off the LEAs (DEFINITELY give the schools the power to hire and fire) and drag the whole system into the light of the real world.

Arf at Attila the Hen

Atilla the Hen! Oh, that is a fabulous typo/autocorrect :)

I have always been pro state education and all mine are going through inner city state primary schools in a deprived area. What started making me consider private education for secondaries is the " tall poppy" syndrome which pervades the state system. DS1 is within the top 3 in his class. In yr 4 his teacher talked about the types of extension work the top table would be getting. 2 years later the reality is they get an hour a week of extension maths with their form teacher. I was told last year The highest level they could do in year 6 KS2 sats was level 5 s otherwise it put too much pressure on secondary schools to keep pushing them up the levels. This was a problem as he had reached level 5 by the end of year 5 Luckily this year someone saw sense and is allowing level 6 to be done in primary schools so at least he's got to do more challenging stuff. Feeling frustrated we went to view the Indy and the attitude was we'll push, challenge and support him as far as he"ll go and maybe a bit more. We're really having to go the extra mile in terms of our finances to put dc through private secondaries but in these uncertain times an excellent education seems a good investment. If the state could provide what I found at the Indy no way would I be paying that would just be insane.

The way the state system fails children has long made me furious. It is a complete triumph of ideology over the hard facts of life, it is patronising, and it is neglectful. It is a waste of talent and a waste of opportunity and it really hurts this country.

I heartily agree with you.

When you talk about the triumph of ideology over the hard facts of life, let's recall that there have been multiple posters on this very thread, whose solution to the failings of state secondary education was to lower university admissions criteria.

Which is tantamount to saying they've given up on trying to educate children at secondary level. Just let's force them into university any old how.

I wonder if any of those advocating lowering university admissions for the failed state system etc would want said graduates perhaps operating on them in future or running coporations, perhaps doing their accounts ?

It's not necessarily the educational brilliance within their walls that ensures private schools produce students who 'do better' than those from state education. It's more likely to be the informal networks to which private education gives you access.

IME the best help private schools could give state schools as by sharing their facilities, not necessarily their expertise. The best state schools already share their expertise with ones that aren't doing so well, by partnering, sharing best practice and so on.

This article in the Independent makes for interesting reading.

Interestingly enough City of London boys was one of the schools we viewed and It was a world away from our local secondaries. Their expectations of their pupils academically and behaviour wise was sky high. For example they would look at putting talented mathematicians onto first year open university degree courses, take part in olympiads etc. Yes networks help but they are of no use if academically you don't cut the mustard or have poor interpersonal skills. In contrast when I visited the state secondaries they kept stating how many GCSEs A-C grades they'd achieved throughout the tour as if this was their raison d'etre

Agree with abitwobbly that some parents (mostly those who don't pay) see education as for schools. If they were paying they might be more committed to it. The culture of entitlement rather than what are my responsiblities to my child is a bit too widespread.

City of London is good.

"On Charitable status and VAT: for £14K fees, this would add on £2800".

No it wouldn't. See my link above (Sunday 01-Jul-12 15:38:39) to VAT policy. Provision of education (including at fee paying schools) is exempt.

The VAT breaks come from goods and services which the charity (school, in this discussion) does not have to pay out.

Even better although they might tinker with the exemption if they changed the rules.

They very recently changed the rules under the Charities Act. It is very unlikely there will be any tax changes. If there are the private sector is sufficiently robust to cope.

Yes, that's why it only works out at an extra £200 per child per annum. It is not worth having anyway. It's certainly not worth having if every tired old hack is going try to claim the moral highground for subsidising independent schools.

Tell you what, why don't you state school peeps give me a refund of the approximately £18k a year it costs to educate a state child. I'm not using that facility, not using it and never will and I think it would be jolly nice of you to let me have it back.

I linked information about the Tribunal's ruling on the Charity Commission's stance on Sunday 01-Jul-12 at 09:03:55.

"No it wouldn't. See my link above (Sunday 01-Jul-12 15:38:39) to VAT policy. Provision of education (including at fee paying schools) is exempt."

Yes, it is at the moment. I was assuming that if they're out to get the Independents, they will change that part of the law too. Be interesting to see what happens after the next election, if Labour get back in...

I doubt they can tinker with the exemption (it's exempt, not zero-rated) as the EU stance is very much towards harmonisation, not creating further differences.

Hopefullyrecovering: the £6k headline figure for typical cost is per annum, not per term. (Though I agree it's almost certainly on the low side, as there are various items not included - including some biggies like insurance).

One of the problems, as I see it, is we don't value education highly enough in the West. Go into Starbucks in Singapore or Bejing and you won't be able to move for students working, for parents sitting reviewing their children's math's homework or generally encouraging them to do more etc. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

No, I know the headline figure is £6k, but it doesn't account for large costs, as you say, so the more accurate figure is 9k (www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1063082/State-schools-cost-private-Labours-red-tape.html I did see a more respectable source than this originally but this was top of the search engine results)

I have two DCs so I consider that I am owed £18k a year. If you'd rather not pay it back into my account, you can pay it directly to their independent schools if you like. We can have a school voucher system. Now that really would be fair.

No, I know the headline figure is £6k, but it doesn't account for large costs, as you say, so the more accurate figure is 9k I did see a more respectable source than this originally but this was top of the search engine results

I have two DCs so I consider that I am owed £18k a year. If you'd rather not pay it back into my account, you can pay it directly to their independent schools if you like. I don't see why independent school parents should pay twice. We should have a school voucher system. Now that really would be fair.

We should have a school voucher system. Now that really would be fair.

No it wouldn't at all! Then everyone who wasn't hugely principled or hugely poor would go to private school, with only the very very poorest left in state schools - 'this is where you go if your parents actually don't have a single penny to spare, good luck with your self-esteem there kids!'

None of us have any choice but to pay into the pot - if what's in the pot isn't to your liking, don't have any, but you're not getting anything back as a reward!

Then everyone who wasn't hugely principled or hugely poor would go to private school, with only the very very poorest left in state schools

That's an admission that there is lots and lots wrong with the state sector, I reckon.

The laws of supply and demand would mean that people seeking independent schools will struggle to get places - currently they only offer places for 7% of pupils. But certainly it will mean a massive increase in the numbers, delivering better quality education to more people. How is that a bad thing?