The return of the O Level.

[hermionestranger]

Leaked reports suggest that the government is to scrap the GCSE from 2015, 2013 option takers will be the last year to take them.

I'm sorry it's the mail bug they were first on my twitter feed. I 'm on my phone so can't link properly.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2162369/Return-O-Level-Gove-shake-biggest-revolution-education-30-years.html

MammaBrussels
Surely awarding strictly by normal distribution only works if the plotted results follow a normal distribution. The point with Physics is that the results don't conform to that, the data is skewed. You could end up with 4 marks being the difference between an A* and a C.
Looking at the link you provided, the data does indeed appear skewed
BUT that data set is NOT the raw mark data.
It is the data set of awarded grades.
And if the grade awarding levels were set too low for the results achieved, it will appear skewed.
TRUST ME - if you went back to the actual numeric marks added up across the papers taken, THEY would be a normal distribution (it is the very nature of human intelligence, tested again and again for the last 200 years)
and then the percentage split for grades would work just fine.

Talkin I was saying that it's a possibility that the grade boundaries could be tiny, not that they would be. As far as I know exam boards don't publish the raw mark data. It's used at awarding meetings (which I'm not important enough to attend) as one of the criteria in determining grade boundaries. Which I think is right, it should not be the only criterion.

And if the grade boundaries are tiny, so what. They are boundaries. That is the point.

When I did my accountancy exams, the pass mark for finals was 50.
49 was a fail. (lose job, lose reputation etc etc)
50 was a pass (60% pay rise, career for life)
51 was a wasted extra night of revision

More people get As in Further Maths A-level than any other A-level. This is a clear indication that Further Maths is far too easy and despite the fact you have to get over 90% on 3 A2 units to get an A a normal distribution curve would be really useful here to accurately distinguish between the best candidates.

noble
Absolutely.
Backtrack slightly here.
DD in KS2 SAts revision was regularly getting over 95%
THAT is the sign of a poor exam. It should not be possible to get 100% in an exam. THey need to rejig the papers to allow differentiation. THEN they might save their jobs by proving that GCSE's can be rigorous.

As I said Up thread, I once came top in a multi school (GDST) test - with 35% because the paper was an utter pig.

In my accountancy exams, one of the tax papers was SO HARD they made the examiner sit it under test conditions. When HE failed, our employers were all notified to allow us a retake.

I would guess that so many people get A stars at A Level maths because the criteria to allow students to sit that course is higher. We only allow students straight on to an A Level maths course if they have an A star at GCSE and will discuss it if they have an A.

On a humanities course we say that A Level Students must have at least a B grade, or we will discuss the course with a C grade student.

I tutor maths and have a long waiting list. This must be another reason grades have improved. In my day, I got no help, not from my parents and certainly not from a private tutor. These days, a lot of students are taking extra lessons in order to get higher grades. Like MammaBrussels (waves to Mamma), I ask my year 11, 12 and 13 students to do as many past papers as they can. This will obviously get them a better grade than if they didn't do this.

I agree, I am amazed at the number of students that I teach who have tutors. I teach secondary students who have had tutors from the age of 5 or 6.

Hello Longtime!

This might sound a bit stupid but isn't maths marked more 'objectively' than other subjects? So isn't it more likely that students will get 100% because their answers are either right or wrong? Whereas in Government & Politics or Economics I have to decide whether an answer is 'excellent' to get full marks, it's down to my judgement rather than the answer simply being correct.

I would agree with that Mamma. I looked at the degree statistics for the year I finished my degree. There were more firsts than in most other subjects but also more lower grades and fails.

Crikey. I did A Level maths and was allowed on to further maths with a GCSE B.

talkin It's not clear that you understood I was being sarcastic. Further maths gets more As than any other subject because only those who are really good at maths take it. As they are really good they are more likely to get over 90% on the required exams. At the moment 30% get an A. That means 30% get over 90%. If you want only 10% to get an A for some arbitrary reason you are going to be awarding different grades depending on a couple of marks difference. Is that really distinguishing between the best mathematicians? Is someone who gets an A really better at maths than someone who dropped a few marks and is awarded a B? No. If they have got over 90% on the required modules then they are all excellent mathematicians who deserve the top grade. To quibble over a couple of marks is merely distinguishing between the most accurate, or really the luckiest, as we can all make a silly mistake here and there.

So isn't it more likely that students will get 100% because their answers are either right or wrong?
ONLY if the exam paper has been written weakly.
Every Good exam paper will have a couple of "tiebreaker" points - that only the utterly utterly exceptional student will get.

Going back to my Accountancy exams ....
These are now open Book - and yet the average mark is still in the low 60's
because to get really high marks you have to be UTTERLY amazing

in a maths exam, there would be a couple of marks that require awareness of MUCH higher level methods - sheep from the goats and all that

If these much higher level methods were on the syllabus then why would you think only a few students would be aware of them?

Talkin, I think you're forgetting that unless the person who writes the exam is the single most able mathematician on earth, there will be a student who can answer every question. It is purely unfair for there to be questions which are impossible to answer.

Bringback
Sorry : you really think that under exam conditions ANY 16 year old could answer every pure maths question thrown at them by a university professor? Let alone the applied questions.
Maths ceases to be numbers at and around GCSE - at which point answers become much more interesting and easier to differentiate understanding from learning.

and the same goes for Physics and Chemistry as well.

ANY well written paper can do this.
FFS Mumsnetters keep talking about how IGCSE exams do exactly that so do not pretend it cannot be done at the normal GCSE

Sorry I thought you were referring to any exam, which would include A level maths, further maths, degree level etc which would include students as able as the professor setting the exam.

Bringback
An old friend writes finals exam papers for pure maths degrees at a Russell Group uni - he aims to get half of them getting over 70%
the normal distribution applies even at that level

The reason I think Olevels are harder is because the in order to do well in the exam you have to understand your subject, understand what the question ask s and beable to under exam conditions organise a logical reply which shows your undrestanding and your ability to pick out the most relevant areas of information. I think this O level biology question illustrates the point I'm making: " Compare and constrast the external features of a bird, a fish and an amphibian, showing how each is adapted to its own particular way of life"

Hmm. Do you have a mark scheme of any kind, explaining what level of detail was required?

Before I travel to Bedfordshire, I must comment that the above question does sound quite good, in my opinion as someone who has never taught, or set an exam. However, I bet that if anyone had claimed that it came from a modern GCSE Biology paper, many people across the nation would be convinced that "birds have feathers to fly, innit" would get full marks!

No marks indicator given but From the exam notes: The keys words are " compare" and "contrast", 'external" and " adapted". It is concerned with external features only such as why birds have beaks and why frogs ( amphibians) have wide gapes to their mouths. Adaptations are answers to biological problems and beaks and wide gapes are solutions to these animals feeding needs. Points of similarity include 2 eyes and 2 nostrils. In such general comparisons you need to also cconsider the following general functions: respiration, excretion, reproduction, movement, sensitivity and response, nutrition, growth, osmoregulation and death when constructing your compare and contrast table as adaptations are very much concerned with function. HTH

For those of you who are up tonight, try this one "What is excretion? And why is it necessary in living organisms?" Give the origins of the excretory compounds in a) a flowering plant and b) a mammal. Describe how the kidney functions as an excretory organ in a mammal.

Mumzy - I really don't think that those are difficult questions. They're only testing lower order thinking skills. I would imagine that there are similar questions on GCSE papers now.