The return of the O Level.

[hermionestranger]

Leaked reports suggest that the government is to scrap the GCSE from 2015, 2013 option takers will be the last year to take them.

I'm sorry it's the mail bug they were first on my twitter feed. I 'm on my phone so can't link properly.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2162369/Return-O-Level-Gove-shake-biggest-revolution-education-30-years.html

'But in the 1980s, and especially now, this isn't the case. Upping the academic content to include some stuff that seems well hard doesn't meet the criticisms of those who think dumbing down means producing less employable people. It's an exam for a dead world.'

I don't think it is about employable it is about academic. You could say Latin is about a dead world. No employer needs your Latin skills. But it is not about employment, it's about academic and intellectual ability. If you can handle Latin, you can handle how to add up at the checkout.

I haven't read the thread, because I'm checking my psychic abilities.

Judging by normal years, I expect some national newspapers have taken a couple of questions from page 3 of a Foundation GCSE maths paper and compared it to an O Level paper though, and lots of mumsnetters have taken this ball and run with it. Am I right?

Yes, you are right, The Guardian had a foundation and higher maths paper compared to an O level maths paper. Obviously, the foundation paper was far too easy and shouldn't have been in there at all.

The variety and width of subjects that you have to cover at school are harder than what you have to face at work. School is much broader, it is about an education, work is more specialised and limited.

Oh, the Guardian this time? Well, nice to see my preconceptions shaken up a bit.

How many people did this get? My lovely GCSE maths teacher is probably writing a letter about representive sampling right now, then.

I blame the old O level maths syllabus- doesn't seem to have prepared pupils for the modern world at all.

If you can handle Latin, you can handle how to add up at the checkout.

Not only is this false (I wish you'd tried this out on some of the brilliant Latinists I've worked with but who couldn't handle a simple budget spreadsheet for toffee), it misses the point. If the point of bunging in something which seems hard to those who struggled with it (such as Gove) is to prove some vague skill, then that skill can be proved with different content.

I have an NVQ in car mechanics. It demanded a great deal more application and focus than the A-level Latin I cruised through....

TheBigJessie, it got me and a few others.

But, adelaofbois, the child doesn't have unlimited choices of what to study. The educationalists and schools have decided what is on offer. They decide the content too. They do it based on what they think is important for a rounded education and a route to future academic achievement and career paths, that they consider valuable. They don't offer GCSEs in lumberjacking.

jessie I certainly wrote them a sternly worded email. I really hope they respond.

the question that had us flabbergasted was
describe 1345 in words

Would anyone be able to the Guardian link? I didn't have time to read it when it was posted and now it's disappeared off up thread!

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/jun/21/have-gcses-got-easier

Here's a link to the grade G level descriptor for GCSE maths.

www.kangaroomaths.com/free_resources/ks4/assessments/renewed_grade_G_descriptors.doc

The question about 1345 was testing place value. Clearly if a GCSE exam needs to be able to award a G grade, then it needs to test at least some G grade topics.

Yes, that is why it was unfair to compare that with an O level

Don't forget that their selection of higher tier questions was unfair too, given that they neglected to include any A or A* questions!

It really annoys me that they didn't even consider running it past someone who knows about maths first.

Yes

Claig it seems to get a lot of people. When I was eleven, the guardian ran a very similar article. My mother proudly cut it out and put it in a scrap-book, as evidence I was at GCSE standard in Mathematics.

I can assure you I was not, and I did not reach GCSE maths standard, until I was taught those areas in year 11.

Plenty of people are 'GCSE standard' in maths age 11 as the level descriptors for KS3 match up with the grade descriptors for GCSE. A level 6 is roughly a D, level 7 is a C and 8 is a B. They obviously don't mention what level of GCSE standard they are.

Yes. Thatcher's government brought the GCSE in. I think one exam rather than two-tier is better. I think its reputation has been harmed by the dumbing down allegations. I think they need to tighten things up and Gove's idea about one exam board per exam is good, to get rid of competitive dumbing down. I think they will have to make it harder because too many are getting A and A*. But they should be able to tweak it rather than bringing in a new exam. But Gove et al know a lot more about it than I do.

AND she has an O level in Maths, by the way.

I, as an unofficial, unelected representive of the Yoof, sneer at you all!

Claig, when you said one exam rather than two tiers do you mean everyone having to sit exactly the same exam? Or do you mean one qualification like GCSE for everyone instead of two tiers of qualification such as O-levels and CSEs? But still able to keep the foundation and higher papers?

X-post. Ah, I understand what you mean nobelgiraffe, but my mother meant "A* - C" standard. Nuh-uh! Got there later on, but wouldn't have passed anywhere near a C, at 11.

But claig, Gove doesn't know more and the et al. is really misleading-this is a very personal crusade.

Gove knows there are things he cannot do, feels pissed by this (partly because daft smartypants people who did Ok at A-level make him feel so), and wants to make it so others must be able to. But that doesn't mean they are important things to be able to do. He wishes he had had a better grasp of the facts of history at school, so wants history to be more about chronological facts, but academic historians know good kids can get this themselves and want it to be made more demanding in terms of functional literacies in reading and writing. Employers want it to be more relevant to fact analysis and data handling. He thinks questions asking for set facts in waffly ways are harder and therefore demanding, but questions which demand you both know and use those facts are actually more so, even if they are more tightly structured. 'Hardness' mixes up a whole raft of issues: rigour, demand, knowledge itself and ability to access the question. Gove seems to many of us to have very personal reasons for where he puts the emphasis.

On topic, this is well worth a read:

ferretbrain.com/articles/article-861

I meant GCSE (2 tier) rather than O level / CSE 2 tier

No, I think Gove ie interested in establishing high standards of education for the country to increase our international ranking. I think he is responding to serious criticisms of GCSEs by institutions and employers, who are saying that there has been dumbing down.