Church influence birth procedure - Irish Times today - harrowing

[BeingFluffy]

Warning - article is harrowing. Describes an "alternative" to CS by widening the pelvis. I was in tears of rage reading of an now elderly woman's experience and suffering. I can't believe this was an authorised surgical procedure. Did it go in the UK as well?

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0612/1224317753223.html

I would say God's decision. the couple would have been pitied a little, probably, but they would have played a big part in their siblings' families as aunties and uncles and indeed would have been very cherished.
That's just going on the experiences of older generations in my own family.

Well, I am having stern words with God at this moment, I can tell you :(.

My dad had an elderly aunt who lived with another woman all her life! The word 'gay' was never mentioned but the two women were very much a couple and visited together regularly as such -everyone adored them, the aunt was quite the character.

@ariel @fane you would get sold a baby that had been stolen off a girl sent to the magdelene laundry probably. while the general population turned a blind eye.

:( Ariel. I hope you have rl people to talk to about this too!

@ariel @fane you would get sold a baby that had been stolen off a girl sent to the magdelene laundry probably. while the general population turned a blind eye.

ethel, sorry not sure what point you're making? Could you clarify?

I was asking, as an aside, how infertile women are viewed in a country whose system for years regarded them as breeding machines, and wondering how infertility regarded.

Ariel, I thought you meant how they were viewed, not how they are currently viewed, sorry.
Currently infertility here is viewed the same as any other developed country. There are support groups and online discussions and medical help and because it is so common people feel more free to talk about it with their friends and family. Catholicsm doesn't really come into it, for this generation at least.
Ethel - that's a pretty facile generalisation.

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up. Thought I was being got at

Though I was also asked how they were viewed in the past. Ireland is/has been such a "popular" country - with good reason - that it's easy to forget how very murky some of its recent secrets are. And it must be very hard for a country to suddenly think its religious history and culture is not what it thought it was, and to come to terms with that. And what do you replace a whole moral code with, even though so many of those morals are now being seen as flawed?

Ariel. IME, older couples who did not have children were rather openly considered to be selfish (rather than perhaps considering that it was not a choice), many parents took the martyr role and children were expected to be grateful.

Ethel your posts are confusing. Catholicism is religion that is governed by the Vatican - Irish priests didn't invade England and bring their own brand of Catholicism with them, they came to England and preached the doctrines of the Catholic church, of which there is only one version. "Dictats against gay marriages" are supported by the Pope - do you expect priests to go against what the Holy See says?

I think your statement that "English Catholics are far more educated" is disgustingly ignorant. Ireland actually has a far higher standard of education that Britain so before you start making such xenophobic remarks get your facts right.

@calin isn't this whole thread about how the Irish heirarchy used their own brand of catholicism, not necessarily seen in other parts of the world, to control the irish.

and hasn't it frequently been said that irish catholics were controlled in a way that made them unable to think freely and one of these ways was through education?

plus I don't mean english catholics and irish catholics wrt to education. i mean 50-100 years ago. sorry if that is unclear.

plus I don't mean english catholics and irish catholics now wrt to education. i mean 50-100 years ago. sorry if that is unclear.

You do realise Ethel that Magdalene Laundries existed in Britain too?

Surely if the educated British Catholics are not happy with what the Irish priests are saying then they will stand up to them?

@calin not for as long though. as people wouldn't stand for it.

and british catholics are leaving in droves. my priest has nearly pushed me to the brink atm.

Do you think the people leaving is due to the Irish priests ethel?

i think it is due to a push to the right that is driven by a clergy that do not have enough cultural understanding of their parishes. yes i do.

But surely it's the duty of priests to preach doctrine? They don't just make up what they say out of their own heads.

have you been to church in the past 10 years? sermons are not just a priest reciting a load of doctrine, they involve a priest giving advise on how to live your life according to the gospel. something that is extremely culturally sensitive. how many other countries have this situation?

btw the english are responsible for not becoming priests themselves though!

Yes I have been to the church in the last ten years. I used to go every week. Sermons have always been that way, that's how Mass works. Priests preach their sermons based on doctrine - they're not going to just spout their personal views with no scriptural backup (unless they're shite priests of course, of which there are a few). You seem to be suggesting that the priests should modify church teaching, which seems odd as that's not what a religion is about IMO,especially not the Catholic religion.

BTW I don't understand your question "how many other countries have this situation?" - what situation?

my point is that i beleive catholics in othre countries tend ot have priests from their own cultures. and i feel thi si simportant for a small group, like english catholics.

also, i feel i have had a very different experience to you wrt priests. they have always talked about their own views, which were in line with doctrine, but their own interpretation on it.

I don't think it's necessarily true that in other countries priests are from that culture. The parish priest in my local church in Ireland was from Zimbabwe. The priest in the church I attended in France was also African, but I'm not sure what particular country he was from.

It sounds to me like you don't trust priests, that you believe they are preaching misleading things. Don't you think it's up to the Church to curb that? If you don't like a priest preaching his own views, which are in line with doctrine, what would you prefer? A modified version of doctrine to fit with the culture?

i'll give you an example

priest in my last parish: talked about how awfully we treat refugees, the importance of regular mass attendence before getting children baptised, how awfully retired priests were treated, my nuclear warfare is against catholicism

priest in current parish: talks about how aful gay marriage is, talks about how afult hererosexuals living together are, talks about how awful parents are for letting children run riot, talks about how awful it is people don't go to confession

they are talking about the same book

I'm not sure what your objection is ethel. All of those views are supported by the Church. The priest is supposed to choose a topic, usually related in some way to the readings or gospel and talks about it in his sermon. Are you saying English priests don't do that?

i am saying that irish priests will choose to speak about the more sex obsessed, life controlling part of the church, which is as has been made clear on this thread, more emphatic in the irish church than the english one.