Church influence birth procedure - Irish Times today - harrowing

[BeingFluffy]

Warning - article is harrowing. Describes an "alternative" to CS by widening the pelvis. I was in tears of rage reading of an now elderly woman's experience and suffering. I can't believe this was an authorised surgical procedure. Did it go in the UK as well?

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0612/1224317753223.html

There used to be a poster on here who I think was in double figures - Zippy I think her name was! But it isn't usually recommended, so that's why this was preferable.

article here

Just goes to show that the Catholic Church sees women as walking wombs and not actually real people.

god that is awful

appalling

I have never heard of this procedure and I have never heard of the catholic church ever opposing C-sections. I find no documentation anywhere to support the claim that the catholic church has ever stood against c-sections. I have had 2, would have had 4, but stupid doctor (not a catholic btw) insisted I had VBAC and I tore to shreds.

I have a good friend (american) who is also catholic and she has had 4 sections.

Maybe it's an irish thing, as my maltese catholic friend, american catholic friend, and me english catholic have never heard of this other procedure and none of us have ever encountered negativity towards this procedure.

Lovely to see another catholic bashing thread though.

I have never been treated as a walking womb. What a strange idea.

I want to know who these "doctors" we're that thought it was ok to perform such an horrific procedure?

What was their motivation? I can't understand someone who is trained to heal not taking the safest medical route for mother and child.

I am Catholic and had a CS.

Sorry, to clarify, I have never heard of symphysiotomy, and have never heard of any negativity or opposition to c- section ever from within the church.

In Ireland, doctors were not allowed to advise women not to have any more children, as that would have been seen as promoting birth control. That's why women like my grandmother ended up with nine c-sections and almost died. The thinking was that if a woman had a symphysiotomy she would then be able to have children vaginally in the future. No thought was given to the effect the procedure would have on the women.

Unfortunately this sort of thing wasn't rare in Ireland at all.

Ernest I'm not sure what your point is. The article is clearly about Ireland, and doesn't mention Britain, Malta or America. Are you saying the women who have spoken out about this are lying, just because you haven't heard of it?

The Catholic church isn't against c-section per se. Symphysiotomy was used in order to avoid c-section because of the danger that c-section would put a limit on the amount of children a woman could have.

Just because you have never heard of it until now doesn't mean it never happened I hadn't heard of it either but I don't doubt it for a second.

Just to confirm: this hideous procedure is definitely no longer going on in Ireland, and C sections are as routine in hospitals here as in any other country. It was one particular maverick obstetrician who was the driving force behind many of the cases: he seemed to have some kind of obsession with it and his influence was widespread.
And yes, the unofficial reason behind it was to avoid c-section as a form of birth control loophole in Catholic Ireland.

But I think that this idea was driven by a few twisted few and was their interpretation of church teaching.

X post with cailindana

In addition to performing sympysiotomies, doctors failed to advise women on the dangers of multiple c-sections and failed to provide women with adequate birth control, meaning that many women's lives were put in grave danger by pregnancies that any responsible doctor would have strongly advised against, had they any ounce of conscience. It is amazing my grandmother survived the repeated negligence and contempt the Irish health system showed for her.

For goodness sake. Where did I suggest I doubted it happened?. I don't for a second doubt it happened. Why would I think these women were lying?? Yes, it sounds totally horrific. My 2 'natural' births and 2 csections were bad enough, but nothing compared to the horror of this procedure.

My poi t re uk/Malta/USA is merely to say that Catholics (that i know) in these 3 countries have never met negativity towards c sections, nor is c-sectionsns against any of the 'rules' and never has been, and that I'm assuming this is to do with this particular person or group of people in Ireland and their warped views, and possibly abuse of position and power.. It is therefore based on v limited anecdotal evidence rather than hard facts.

But I don't think a wholesale catholic bashing is fair or warranted, or rudeness for that matter, but I'll save my breath.

This isn't catholic bashing, it's a factual article that happens to be about something that went on in the catholic organisation. There's a difference.

This is a truly terrible history for any country to have. I googled a bit after reading the article, and found something that suggested it went on into the early 90s. :(

"Just goes to show that the Catholic Church sees women as walking wombs and not actually real people."

Right ok. Not catholic bashing. Gotcha.

Oh right. Yes. One opinion clearly means this is wholesale catholic bashing. Right ok. Gotcha.

My catholic friend says women are revered in the RC church not hated. I disagree I wouldn't go as far as saying hated but I do think feminism and equal rights are not tolerated.

The same friend practises NLP now I can't get my head around this surely NLP is birth control they are adopting a method that controls fertility albeit through abstinence at fertile times, why is that any different to using a condom to catch sperm? Or taking a pill to prevent ovulation?

Btw my husband is a catholic as are my DC hubby disagrees with a lot of the hard line doctrine.

This was recorded as last happening in 1994.
And yes, the consultant in one particular hospital (Our Lady of Lourdes, Drogheda) was vehemently opposed to c-sections for the religious reasons outlined by other posters. Yes, he was a misguided crackpot, but he was supported and assisted by the religious order of the hospital he worked in, and never once questioned or reported. I have not actually heard about such institutionalised medical abuse of women in the area of reproductive health with the backing of such a large religious organisation as the Catholic Chuch, so yes, I do think it is fair to state that they viewed women as walking wombs. Taken in context with the church' control on state policy, access to contraception, family planning legislation and influence on social, cultural and family life it is entirely reasonable to assume that the Vatican are not women's biggest fans. Nothing unreasonable in that - the proof is in the contraceptive pudding, as it were.

It isn't based on "very limited anecdotal evidence" Ernest, it's an established fact that it happened. I used to be Catholic myself so I'm not out to Catholic-bash. But it is true that women in Ireland were seen as "walking wombs" - anything that preserved their fertility and prevented birth control was seen as acceptable, regardless of the effect it had on the women themselves. Except, of course, if the woman had the audacity to have sex without the church's permission, or worse still had the bald-faced cheek to get raped and end up pregnant, in that situation their baby was taken away and they were incarcerated indefinitely.

right the actions of catholics in this situation is disgusting, and I feel slightly sick.

but why oh why do the irish population at large get away with this kind of behaviour that they condoned for DECADES AND COME OUT THE OTHER SIDE AS THE VICTIM? No other group associated with this kind of behaviour gets away so scot free.

these were democratically elected governments that were condoning this ffs.

Not a bit surprised to see that this was Our Lady of Lourdes in Drogheda. The consultants there seemed to have a total God-Complex at that time. Several young women had caesarian hysterectomies there for no good reason at all and it seemed that sadly, if you were from a poorer socio-economic group, you were more likely to have one than if you were a richer private patient.

I had a caesarian hysterectomy having dd, it was my fifth section in total. It was totally necessary, my obs had to call in a second obs as he was not allowed to make the decision alone. He explained that I had had nine units of blood and was still bleeding when they made the decision but was still apologetic that he had to do the hysterectomy.

This was also the hospital where several women were advised to have D+C's and that their pregnancy was not viable and then after getting a second opinion were told that their babies had a heartbeat. And that was in the last couple of years!

They have a lovely midwife-led unit there now with lovely birthing rooms and a pool but I would still hate to think of any of my friends going there.

I would say the situation in Ireland up until the mid-seventies was very similar in a lot of ways to how hard-line Muslim countries are now. There was little or no separation between religion and law and the Church ran all the schools, hospitals, some of the colleges and had a massive say in government policy. The population, especially women, lived in fear of the local priest and bishop, and rightly so given the power they had. For example if you wanted to be a teacher but word got through to Mary Immaculate College (the main teacher training college) that you had a "bad character" there was no way you would get in, and that was it, your career prospects scuppered. My aunt was denied access to train as a secondary teacher in the 80s because her father was an alcoholic. The general culture promoted the power that the Church had.

Given that that was the situation, it's hard to hold an entire regime to account. But I do agree that the specific policy makers, doctors and Church leaders who made decisions that harmed others should be held accountable. That's very unlikely to happen though :(