Doctors' strike? What do you think?

[Solopower]

I think it's gong to be on 21 June, unless they can negotiate a solution with the NHS Employers' organisation (whoever they are).

Are they right to strike to protect their pensions?

...or they might have trained here, have family here and actually want to do some good maybe.

Do you honestly think people in the NHS think "wow I'm 18 and that's a good pension". Not likely - most people who choose medical or nursing careers do so because it allows them to do some good for others. I went into nursing because I wanted to help others - I could not have told you what a pension was at 18 - or even 28 tbh - now at 46 I do think about the pension and often it's about how little it will be - I'd have to be in a senior management post to bring in a livable amount. As it is mine will be less than 7k a year but - hey - I didn't do the job for the money anyhow.

But you sound bitter about it all Josephine - why? What does it matter to you? When the economy was great I wonder if you were as bitter about NHS/Public sector pensions. Or has it taken the crash for you to think "what are they getting that I am not"? Sounds a bit grasping - are you?

Are you able to answer without sounding bitter I wonder? Am doubtful tbh.

Problem is striking never affects the ones in the power to make decisions regarding their pay pensions etc. Yes we have the vote but where does that get anyone who is on ordinary pay and with no sign of being able to retire , or who struggles right now every day.

I think medicine is a bit of a swizz of a profession to be honest with you. The BMA is a trade union with far too much clout.

Imagine in the free market, a situation where you need X numbers of people coming through the universities and hospitals. Then imagine a situation where you only train Y numbers of people (Y being much smaller than X). This is how an artificial shortage is created. It's not about maintaining high standards. There are thousands of bright A level candidates brandishing the required 4 As getting turned away because there aren't enough places.

So, we've created an artificially short supply of doctors. Then we overwork them for the first five or so years of their professional lives. This has the impact of everyone feeling sorry for the poor overworked doctors. Then for the next 35 years we over pay them and their retirement is positively gold-plated. Imagine getting around £80k in retirement! That's 3x the average working salary ...

It's all an absolute swizz. I'd like the BMA to open their doors to me though. They're the only trade union left with a ridiculous and over-weening amount of clout.

Yes, that too cod. Other fators do have a part to play though. With the MTAS mess a few years ago a lot of the people that I worked with went to Austrailia and New Zealand, and they havent come back and are now settled there, so while things like family and feeling settled in an area are important, work related factors are relevent too.

I have no sympathy for them whatsever, they need to wake up and smell the champers.

You need to differentiate between hospital docs and GPs. The former have a hard job It is the Gps who have been getting all the dosh while decreasing their hours.It is the Gps who have closed down at the weekends and got rid of their out of hours call outs etc

We lived overseas for a couple of years. DH originally went to do a fellowship - his salary was the same as it is here as a consultant surgeon. He was paid extra for any out of hours work so X amount for taking phone calls, Y amount for having to go in, His patients were actually grateful for his care unlike the Uk where he often gets abuse. Unfortunately I missed family and the UK so he applied to come back to the UK. At which point he was offered the equivalent of £300,000 to stay. Regretfully he'd already accepted a position here and would not go back on his word.

Anyway I have a question. NHS contributions increased in the 2008 deal to continue funding NHS pensions. This is sustainable. I have read that the proposed increases to pensions are going to go directly to the treasury (and not back into the pension scheme). Any idea what the money is going to be used for?

I don't think the public (many of whom do not have any pension at all) should be forced to fund Doctors extremely lucrative pensions. If Doctors want pensions, they should arrange them privately. They are paid very highly. They can afford it. Many normal people cannot.

That says it all JosephineCD
Like I said those who can afford private health care, private hospital care etc will not be affected. I for one am grateful when a doctor helps me or anyone I know, criticise when they don't but at the same time know that doctors are human too stand by what JosephineCD said and that is the core of the matter right now.

The doctors' post-2008 pension is sustainable. The government is scare-mongering.

Two words for the private pension enthusiasts: Robert Maxwell.

Ridculous to make a confdent statement that it is sustainable. All pensions are based on investments - there are no guarantees unless the government (taxpayers, government has no money except what it taxes or borrows) effectively continues to pay a lifelong salary to doctors. Otherwise the fluctuation of the investment of their contributions and the actuarial value at their retirement date will determine the return.

That's just factually incorrect, Echt

The NHS pension scheme is pay-as-you-go. That means it is unfunded.

So it relies on the taxpayer (ie me) who is already very hard hit with trying to deal with my own pension deficit, paying huge sums for doctors.

It's not a particularly palatable pill to have to swallow, frankly. Why don't you pay for your own pensions like everyone else?

You do know that NHS staff pay pension contributions right?

I think they get paid more then enough as it is (thanks to Labour) GPs are laughing and they don't even have to do out of hours house calls anymore another over paid service provider gets that.

They get no sympathy from me.

Yes, NHS staff do pay pension contributions. Of course they do. But the contributions are nowhere close to the entitlement to benefits received.

As I explained upthread, you would pretty well need to QUADRUPLE your pension contributions to derive the benefits you are entitled to if the NHS were in a defined contribution rather than a defined benefit scheme. That's how highly subsidised the NHS scheme is.

Different NHS staff pay different proportions of income, there are bandings that depend on income that determine the percentage paid, the higher your income, the greater the percentage of it that you pay in pension. Even if your calculations were correct, it wouldn't make sense to talk about quadrupling contributions as if everyone pays the same.

....and yet most NHS staff are in posts which will not give them huge pension incomes. Mine will be less than 7k a year after 40 years as a nurse in the NHS.

Doctors of course do things differently but I don't recall the "ooh look at your generous pension it's not fair" while the private sector were raking in the cash.

If things need to change then fair enough but to keep changing the goalposts is crap.

The "generous" pension was supposed to reflect the fact that NHS staff generally earned less and had less perks than in the private sector. The pay may or may not still be true (I am out of date) but the perks have never been there ever.

Just as an example, my brother (private sector employee in a Warehouse) was asked to do six months of training in another area. Not only did he get all hotel bills paid but also had a shiny new hire car delivered to him for use ( business AND social) - and that's as a humble warehouseman.

Needless to say I have NEVER had such stuff in the NHS ( they vary from paying travel and hotel costs to "you pay for the training and we'll do expenses - I certainly would not get both) fair enough I don't want it. I do rather get cheesed off though when people sniff about my employer and whine about my small pension which might JUST be a smidgen better than I'd have got in the private sector.

As for GPs - they earn well but people are stupid if they believe all GPs are on £150k. I suspect that's very few of them and this " strike" will achieve precisely NOTHING for them.

When were the private sectors "raking in the cash"?

These perks and high earnings simply do not exist for the vast majority of private sector workers.