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Doctors' strike? What do you think?

143 replies

Solopower · 30/05/2012 22:19

I think it's gong to be on 21 June, unless they can negotiate a solution with the NHS Employers' organisation (whoever they are).

Are they right to strike to protect their pensions?

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MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 01/06/2012 10:31

Many of us did many things in good faith, many years ago (I bet all the divorcees on MN made their wedding vows in good faith ) but things change and people have to adapt to the new circumstances. Docs have a tough job but it is rewarding - most folks in most of the world do tough jobs for less reward - even the worst off in this country have a cushy life and longer life expectancy compared to most places - wake up, get real, adapt.

OscarandLulu · 01/06/2012 11:05

I am supportive of Doctors taking this action. Historically strike action is taken by unions that typically represent 'perceived' lower skilled workers whose voice is otherwise unheard or respected in parliament or the media without shouting.

The fact that Doctors represent a group of 'perceived' highly skilled, well educated workers who are; both threatening to take on the liberal democrats in an organised political movement at the next election, AND striking against cuts is a matter of principle. They know only too well that if their action is listened to, then other groups will have to be listened to too.

This action is in my view a political action which is designed to send a message to the public and to the government, that ALL of these cuts are too fast, and too many without a view to the longer term consequences for society (and their profession!) as a whole.

Doctors are doing this not solely to protect their personal income, but to protect the NHS as a whole. The combined cost of the increase in child poverty and an aging population is going to be phenomenal for our children's generation to support from a healthcare point of view, with tragic consequences. The more we cut now the harder it will be to repair and restore in the future.

For all the reasons that people have already highlighted; most people go into medicine with a view to helping people, the hours, the pressure, the tragedy they deal with in ordinary lives on a daily basis. Most Doctors know this is the scene they survey before they start medical school now, and have done for years. This is their mechanism for politically stopping a tragedy waiting to happen, that these politicians have no view or understanding of.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 01/06/2012 11:11

So what should be cut instead so these pensiosn can be maintained? (Remember the outgoing treasury ministers of the prevous government left a note for the incomers 'no money left, all been spent')

misslinnet · 01/06/2012 11:25

I understand why they're upset about the pensions being changed, but I think that industrial action won't help as:

a) the government won't back down as they'd then have increased industrial action from all the public sector unions representing lower paid workers

b) they won't have much public support. Most people assume that even newly qualified doctors earn megabucks and that being a doctor means guaranteed job security. And withholding care, even if they're still providing emergency treatment, gives the false impression that doctors don't care about sick people.

OscarandLulu · 01/06/2012 11:46

Austerity needs to be balanced with growth. There is a lot of rhetoric across Europe at the moment about the 'good house-keeping' analogy. Well show me a healthy, balanced and well organised household that faced with hard times says 'oh we'll just tighten our belts'.

No, most household's faced with hard times will combine better budgeting and doing without, with more positive action to raise more income; mothers who don't work, seek work, those that do work up their shifts/hours, take on additional jobs, rent a room in their homes, grow something, make something or start something [business]. The challenge with the austerity only strategy is that we are constantly removing opportunities for ordinary households to raise that extra income, and the youth unemployment figures are setting up a generation of young people to believe there is NO HOPE, so why bother? this culture is hugely dangerous in terms of the cost to society because this is where the benefit dependency cycle starts.

I agree that we need austerity, I agree with cuts, and I agree that the culture of benefit dependency in this country is rife/unhealthy/unsustainable and unproductive.

But, perhaps we could look a little closer at our European cousins and learn from their example. Germany and France are also experiencing austerity measures but they are also experiencing growth. Their economies have been more balanced from the outset; manufacturing, green sector, technology, energy pharmaceuticals etc etc. They are allegedly less competitive for large blue chip companies to set up in due to their employment laws, but remarkably these sectors are sustained and in some cases growing in these countries. The employment laws in place have acted as a cushion to recession in these countries because companies and not the state have to bear some of the cost of hard times... we are all in this together, non?

MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 01/06/2012 11:50

nice idea, but not if inflating an already overblow public sector - that is not 'growth'. Growrth can only come from the private sector.

LadySybildeChocolate · 01/06/2012 11:50

I don't support it, sorry. They train for 2 (or in the Graduate Doctor programme, 1) year more then nurses, OT's, Radiographers, Teachers etc. All are essential to the running of the country but all are being forced to have reduced pensions. Yes, Doctors do work longer hours, they also have the option to work privately which rakes the money in. £200 for a 20 min appointment! I disagree with striking, no matter who it is. It punishes those who need that service, as well as the employers.

SardineQueen · 01/06/2012 12:10

One person who objects to this on the basis that doctors are "greedy bastards" says they should let market forces take over and see what happens to their salaries then.

I think that doctors in the US get paid a vast amount of money, don't they?

I also think encouraging doctors to leave the NHS and go and work in the private sector here or abroad is not a positive thing to wish for.

landofsoapandglory · 01/06/2012 12:20

I don't agree with it I'm afraid. When the pension deal was agreed in 2008 the country was in a completely different place financially. For the government to honour this agreement there would have to be either cuts else where or a raise in taxes and that wouldn't be fair. Every one is taking a hit on their pensions, why should doctors be any different?

ReallyTired · 01/06/2012 13:57

The private sector are having to pay more for their pensions and work longer. With increasing life expectancy annuities are far more expensive than they used to be.

I feel its only fair that doctors take a hit like the rest of us. Personally I would like the governant to increase taxes on really wealthy pensioners through income tax.

I feel its wrong that a pensioner on 30K paids less tax than a working person on 30K who prehaps has to support a family.

OscarandLulu · 01/06/2012 14:35

I agree that I don't think the Doctors will win this time, but in the spirit of democracy I still believe they should go ahead.

If they do win the opportunity for better negotiations then that will open up the debate for other workers too.

If they don't then there is even more argument for them to take on the lib dems at the next election, if they do this then I believe the disillusioned general public will vote for them, and disrupt our bi-polar political system (sorry lib dems are proving themselves in-effectual :-( )

I'd far rather see doctors in a coalition, who are broadly speaking 'in touch' with real people and real lives than any of the current contenders.

In my view the UK has had a succession of govt's that have failed to face the big issues because they are not popular with with their own party policies or with an electorate that thinks that the solutions are black and white; free markets versus the state, that is why we face the crisis we are in in the UK today.

mollymole · 01/06/2012 15:31

Just where is the money to pay these pensions supposed to come from ?

grovel · 01/06/2012 16:06

Earlier they decided not to strike over NHS reforms which they think will harm patients.

But now they strike over their pensions.

Doesn't feel great to me.

Highlander · 01/06/2012 19:12

Doctors pay 14% of their salary into the pension pot.

senior civil servants pay only 7%.

Both receive a very similar pension.

Doctors feel they are propping up the civil servants pension pot, hence the strike.

They are not striking because they are paying more, with everyone in the same boat. No-one denies we all need to make larger pension contributions to fund anlengthy retirement. They are making unfair contributions, to prop up public sector workers whose job cannot, by ANY stretch of the imagination, be as stressfull as a doctor's.

Solopower · 02/06/2012 12:43

So the government is trying to cut public service pensions across the board, at a time when people are living longer, so although we'll be working for longer, there will still be less money for us when we retire and it will have to go further.

Not only that, but if the government succeeds in privatising health care, we are also going to have to pay for our hip replacements ourselves or pay insurance. There is no guarantee that we will have anything resembling our NHS in 20 years' time.

I think that we should all fight to protect our pensions. We'd have to be mad not to.

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maples · 02/06/2012 12:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Solopower · 02/06/2012 12:45

It's in everyone's interests that pensions remain intact. If elderly people are poor and dependent, they will be a burden on the young.

It's such a false economy to reduce pensions, imo.

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ilovemydogandMrObama · 02/06/2012 12:47

am confused. I thought the GP's recently negotiated their pay and conditions? Am I confusing this with the PCT's contacts?

maples · 02/06/2012 12:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Solopower · 02/06/2012 12:58

The best way to pay for pensions is through taxes, imo. So bring back the 50% for higher earners for starters.

Excuse my ignorance, but are pensions taxed? Or is the tax that you pay while you are working taken off before you pay into your pension, iyswim?

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Solopower · 02/06/2012 13:03

I don't want doctors or anyone else to be poor, Maples. I think private sector pensions should be better too, btw.

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Solopower · 02/06/2012 13:20

Sorry for repeating myself, if anyone else is straddling the two threads as I am.

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Codandchops · 02/06/2012 13:30

Thing is - it's called a "strike" but tvh it is anything but - emergency cover is still there and many doctors who already have patients booked in will just see them as normal.
I don't think as a protest it will be that effective sadly because I utterly support what they are saying.

Highlander · 02/06/2012 13:56

Only 50% of doctors voted in the ballot.

DH's dept are avoiding any stress by rearranging the theatre diary and having their audit day on the 16th. No change to the service.

hiveofbees · 02/06/2012 14:01

51% voted.

Emergency and urgent work will continue on the 21st.