Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Sweden plans to be world's first oil-free economy

86 replies

monkeytrousers · 12/02/2006 14:20

Sounds like a good plan, lets hope it catches on!

OP posts:
Blandmum · 13/02/2006 15:51

PD re the earth needing replenishing.

The biomass comes from carbon dioxide in the air and water via photosynthesis

Carbon dioxide + water -> Glucose + oxygen, usinfg ebergy from sunlight. All the biomass that exsists is produced from this process. The plants then either use the glucose to release energy. or convert it into starch or oils for storage, into cellulose to make cell walls or compine it with nitrogen from the soil (and sometimes other menerals) to make proteins.

It is only the last part that involved anything being taken from the soil....other than water.

This is the single biggest misconception of all in biology, that plants get their 'food' from the soil. They don't. they get it from photosyntheses. We do need to return trace elements to the soil, to ensure effecicent growth,, but thatis fairly simple to do, by using manure and other fertilizers.

peacedove · 13/02/2006 16:16

ah yes, MB, photosynthesis

Don't you need compost for better growth of plants., for better spresding of the roots?

Blandmum · 13/02/2006 16:20

You do need compost for a few different reasons.

It helps to soak up water.....helping plants in dry weather conditions. It makes it easier for roots to grow onto more 'broken up' soil. It can help to aerate the soil.....helping bacteria to break down ammonia to useful nitrates. It is also needed to help the pants to make proteins from the sugar they made during photosynthesis, IYSWIM

But if you think of it, most trees grow in soil which has little or no added manure. If then got their 'food' from the soil, they would be growing in a deep hole!

They do need trace elements from the soil to make protein, and manure is very good at imrpoving the quality on the soil and thus the crops.

But the vast bulk of the biomass comes from CO2 in the air and water alone.

Amazing isn't it?

Blandmum · 13/02/2006 16:21

plants not pants!

peacedove · 13/02/2006 16:29

uwila this is intersting:

Biomass to liquid (BTL) is a (multi step) process to produce liquid fuels out of biomass:

Making ethanol from sugar cane
Fischer Tropsch process is used to produce synfuels out of gasified biomass. While biodiesel and bio-ethanol production so far only use parts of a plant, i.e. oil, sugar or starch, BTL production uses the whole plant which is gasified or converted enzymatically . The result is that for BTL, less land area is required per unit of energy produced compared with biodiesel or bio-ethanol.

Synthetic Diesel May Play a Significant Role as Renewable Fuel in Germany

Enzymatic Hydrolysis

Biodiesel refers to any diesel-equivalent biofuel made from renewable materials such as vegetable oils or animal fats. Several different kinds of fuels are called biodiesel: usually biodiesel refers to an ester, or an oxygenate, made from the oil and methanol, but alkane (non-oxygenate) biodiesel, that is, biomass-to-liquid (BTL) fuel is also available. Sometimes even unrefined vegetable oil is called "biodiesel". Unrefined vegetable oil requires a special engine, and the quality of petrochemical diesel is higher. In contrast, alkane biodiesel is of a higher quality than petrochemical diesel, and is actually added to petro-diesel to improve its quality.

Biodiesels are biodegradable and non-toxic, and have significantly fewer emissions than petroleum-based diesel (petro-diesel) when burned. Biodiesel functions in current diesel engines, and is a possible candidate to replace fossil fuels as the world's primary transport energy source.

With a flash point of 160 °C, biodiesel is classified as a non-flammable liquid by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. This property makes a vehicle fueled by pure biodiesel far safer in an accident than one powered by petroleum diesel or the explosively combustible gasoline. Precautions should be taken in very cold climates, where biodiesel may gel at higher temperatures than petroleum diesel.

Biodiesel can be distributed using today's infrastructure, and its use and production is increasing rapidly (especially in Europe, the United States, and Asia). Fuel stations are beginning to make biodiesel available to consumers, and a growing number of transport fleets use it as an additive in their fuel. Biodiesel is generally more expensive to purchase than petroleum diesel, although this differential may diminish due to economies.

There is a lot more on Production etc. at:

Biodiesel

peacedove · 13/02/2006 16:38

Efficiency and economic arguments:

According to a study written by Drs. Van Dyne and Raymer for the Tennessee Valley Authority, the average US farm consumes fuel at the rate of 82 litres per hectare (8.75 US gallons per acre) of land to produce one crop. However, average crops of rapeseed produce oil at an average rate of 1,029 L/ha (110 US gal/acre), and high-yield rapeseed fields produce about 1,356 L/ha (145 US gal/acre). The ratio of input to output in these cases is roughly 1:12.5 and 1:16.5. Photosynthesis is known to have an efficiency rate of about 16 % and if the entire mass of a crop is utilized for energy production, the overall efficiency of this chain is known to be about 1 %. This does not compare favorably to solar cells combined with an electric drive train. Biodiesel outcompetes solar cells in cost and ease of deployment. However, these statistics by themselves are not enough to show whether such a change makes economic sense.

Additional factors must be taken into account, such as: the fuel equivalent of the energy required for processing, the yield of fuel from raw oil, the return on cultivating food, and the relative cost of biodiesel versus petrodiesel. A 1998 joint study by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) and the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) traced many of the various costs involved in the production of biodiesel and found that overall, it yields 3.2 units of fuel product energy for every unit of fossil fuel energy consumed. [7] That measure is referred to as the energy yield. A comparison to petroleum diesel, petroleum gasoline and bioethanol using the USDA numbers can be found at the Minnesota Department of Agriculture website[8] In the comparison petroleum diesel fuel is found to have a 0.843 energy yield, along with 0.805 for petroleum gasoline, and 1.34 for bioethanol. The 1998 study used soybean oil primarily as the base oil to calculate the energy yields. It is conceivable that higher oil yielding crops could increase the energy yield of biodiesel. The debate over the energy balance of biodiesel is ongoing, however.

Some nations and regions that have pondered transitioning fully to biofuels have found that doing so would require immense tracts of land if traditional crops are used. Considering only traditional plants and analyzing the amount of biodiesel that can be produced per unit area of cultivated land, some have concluded that it is likely that the United States, with one of the highest per capita energy demands of any country, does not have enough arable land to fuel all of the nation's vehicles. Other developed and developing nations may be in better situations, although many regions cannot afford to divert land away from food production. For third world countries, biodiesel sources that use marginal land could make more sense, e.g. honge nuts [9] grown along roads.

More recent studies using a species of algae that has oil contents of as high as 50% have concluded that as little as 28,000 km² or 0.3 % of the land area of the US could be utilized to produce enough biodiesel to replace all transportation fuel the country currently utilizes. Further encouragement comes from the fact that the land that could be most effective in growing the algae is desert land with high solar irradiation, but lower economic value for other uses and that the algae could utilize farm waste and excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae. [10]

The direct source of the energy content of biodiesel is solar energy captured by plants during photosynthesis. The website biodiesel.co.uk[11]discusses the positive energy balance of biodiesel:

When straw was left in the field, biodiesel production was strongly energy positive, yielding 1 GJ biodiesel for every 0.561 GJ of energy input (a yield/cost ratio of 1.78).
When straw was burned as fuel and oilseed rapemeal was used as a fertilizer, the yield/cost ratio for biodiesel production was even better (3.71). In other words, for every unit of energy input to produce biodiesel, the output was 3.71 units (the difference of 2.71 units would be from solar energy).
Biodiesel is becoming of interest to companies interested in commercial scale production as well as the more usual home brew biodiesel user and the user of straight vegetable oil or waste vegetable oil in diesel engines. Homemade biodiesel processors are many and varied.

trice · 13/02/2006 17:18

Iceland have all that geothermal stuff don't they? I would have thought that would be quite a big advantage.

ruty · 13/02/2006 18:56

PD biodiesel in its raw form [used vegetable oil]is used a lot in Eastern Europe in domestic cars. It is a bit smelly tho! i think a company was thinking of selling biodiesel over here , but the oil companies were forcing the govt to mark it up so it had a competetive price in comparison with oil - so stupid when its so cheap to make. The bloody govt here drives me crazy - they are in the hands of the nuclear industry and haven't invested enough in renewable energy, there just isnt't any financial interest in it for them. So more nuclear power stations and more nuclear waste. what a lovely legacy for our future generations.

ruty · 13/02/2006 18:59

sorry i think you all know more about biodiesel than me anyway!

monkeytrousers · 13/02/2006 20:28

LOL @ pants!

OP posts:
peacedove · 14/02/2006 13:14

ruty, not at all. What you have said has increased my knowledge.

anteater · 14/02/2006 13:45

My BIL is involved in a new biomas power station in Scotland but they are having big problems actually getting the power onto the Grid; too much power up norf, not enough dun salf

fennel · 14/02/2006 13:46

we use biofuel from a biodiesel garage for our car. have not noticed it being smellier than ordinary diesel.

kittyfish · 14/02/2006 14:23

Where do you get bio diesel from Fennel? And did you need a conversion kit of some sort?

Blandmum · 14/02/2006 14:25

here is a website that lists filling stations

ruty · 14/02/2006 14:26

that's interesting MB. And thanks PD !

Blandmum · 14/02/2006 15:06

Even though biodeseil is co2 neutral hydrogen will eventualy be a better bet, since its onlt waste product is water, no co2 at all.

We can't use it yet though.

ruty · 14/02/2006 15:10

why not MB? Haven't they done it in Iceland already?

peacedove · 14/02/2006 15:18

How is biodiesel CO2 neutral?

Blandmum · 14/02/2006 15:28

ok this is hard to do without a black board, but go along with me

All biomass (the mass in all living things) originaly comes from the equation for photosynthesis

CO2 + H2O -> Glucose + O2

so when a plant grows all the carbon atoms in it were originaly in the air. We get all our foods from plants orignaly, so all the carbon in us was originaly CO2 in the air.

When things burn (or decay) the carbon atoms go back into the air as CO2.

OK, we are affecting the amount of CO2 in the air by buring fossil fuels. All the carbon in them was originaly from CO2, but has been 'locked' into the hydrocarbons for millions of years. When we burn petrol the CO2 goes back into the air, raising levels.

The only things that take CO2 out of the air are plants, so we are making things worse by chopping down trees etc.

bio deisel is CO2 neutral because it isn't adding to the CO2 in the air, it just goes from the air into sugars in the plant, get turned into biodesil, burned and the CO2 gos back into the air.....and enless cycle which is ballanced at neutral IYSWIM

When you burn hydrogen OTOH you just get water. the reason we can't to do that yet is hydrogen productio requires a lot of energy itself. Also it is rather explosive! And we don't have the safe technology , yet!

Sorry, very dull lesson over....but you did ask

Blandmum · 14/02/2006 15:30

if you want to be picky that equation isn't ballanced

should be
6CO2 + 6H2O -> C6H12O6 + 6O2

and incidentaly this also gives us the oxygen that we need to respire....isn't biology wonderful

kittyfish · 14/02/2006 15:33

Brill explanation.

ruty · 14/02/2006 15:35

you are a mine of information MB! But i was so sure iceland were running their cars on hydrogen already. Am i wrong?

kittyfish · 14/02/2006 15:37

I did think that too - can't be growing biofuels with the climate and midnight sun etc.

fennel · 14/02/2006 15:38

kittyfish, ours comes from a new biodiesel coop in Manchester. dp is involved in setting it up. it's not on that website, i suppose it's still new.

we didn't do anything to convert, just put it in the tank! but we started with a lower biodisel percentage (5%, with 95% traditional diesel) and gradually increase the biodiesel percentage.

i think our fuel comes from used chip fat. lots of that available for free in manchester!

Swipe left for the next trending thread