Start-up business in Greece gets snarled in red-tape

[andisa]

Observer/New York Times article on Sunday. Poor Greece with all its woes cannot seem to solve its bureacracy problems. I used to live there and remember the nonsense of filling in forms from one office to another and I was a teacher, not trying to export goods. Does anyone else know about the situation in Greece right now?

No money at all - people not being paid for months, years.

sorry, don't have link - you could look - Observer on sunday, New York Times section. Apparently it is all over news an America about how hard it is to start a business there.

Friend tells me they wait for pay and those with families really suffer because of this - my friend is single and has own property so copes.
Life style was so good 25 years ago when I lived there - so sad.

You could look for the link rather than lazily nit bothering.

Presumably the answer is to ignore the red tape like the Greeks do.

To AE,

I'm astounded at your rudeness - not particularly computer literate and new to mumsnet. I presume when you are not anonymous you are not quite so blunt and scathing - why hide if that is who you are.

Apologies to all if I should be giving a link - not something I've ever done and wouldn't be sure how to do it.

Auntie - did you mean to be quite so rude? Seems a bit un-called-for to me

I live in Greece. Been here far too long for years.

I know people start up a business, get it running, and worry about the paperwork afterwards.

Huge problems with people not getting paid.

My dh's uncle retired (normally, at the age of 65) and 18 months later he is still waiting for his pension. He has had to move in with his already struggling son.

In January our paediatrician told us he could no longer see our ds2 (SN) unless we paid for each visit, as he had not been paid for over a year.

The list goes on and on.

Yes, life used to be great here. I try not to dwell on it too much.

Really sorry to hear this a.p.mum. I do wonder how Greece will untangle itself from this disaster. I remember when Athens had minimal crime and that has also apparently changed.

Yes, Athens is terrible now. I lived there for a while, in a nice area, and it's apparently become a no-go area.

I don't know if Greece will untangle itself, at least not for the foreseeable future. If only we could a large spaceship and send ALL the current authorites off on an extended trip to another galaxy! I think we need a completely fresh start.

ahem. BUILD a large spaceship!

here it is

Interesting article actually, saw it on Sunday.

I've looked at your links. Thank you Meg. and Betel. I did ask my DH would you show me how to make a link and he muttered and wandered off ... so Maybe I'd better have a look into it.

If the debt outlook has improved that is a start - good.

Re: Crime. A gun hold up of a corner shop in Kato Patissia took place just a few months ago, near a square I used to walk home from alone at 2am. I suppose crime is not surprising in modern Europe but Athens was so safe compared to London - lifestyle must have changed. However, my friend Nikoletta who has lived their all her life was shocked at this incident in a local neighbourhood.

I have just been laughing at some of the translations. (sorry, can't help it!) Is that what Google translate is always like? Long may it stay that way and ensure employment for me! (professional translator here)

Betelguese what did you mean by this "I found there were disputes in Greece about utility bills"

are you referring to a time over 10 years ago pre-euro when you were in Greece, or something more recent? I am asking because utility bills are currently a major problem, with a huge (and I mean ENORMOUS) tax suddenly added to the electricity bill. In the space of just 2 months I received 2 bills with an added 350 euros approx each, with the threat of having electricity cut off if I did not pay.

Fitch can upgrade and downgrade all it likes. The Greek PM said himself a few days ago that he expected to ask for a new bailout.

And yes, all large cities have their share of crime. But living here seeing people relying on food parcels from local churches, businesses closing every day on the high street, people who cannot afford to pay for medical care, unemployed people who are entitled to no benefits and have no income at all, forced to rely on charity, I can understand why desperate people who would never have considered it before are turning to burglary, etc.

to a.p. mum

Sorry to hear how tough it is. I feel for Greece and perhaps the euro was not a good idea in the first place. However, cultrally, I do feel the system of passing forms from one office to another is wrong and tedious for all- Greece has to have the will to change this. I also here bribes have become more commonplace and that is really sad

andisa

I agree with you. I don't think the euro has been good for Greece, and yes the bureaucracy is a real nuisance and needs a complete overhaul. This is one reason why we need to completely get rid of the current establishment and have a fresh start. Bribes, however, have always been a fact of life in Greece, unfortunately. Another thing I wish could be weeded out, but I can't see it happening.

It's hard to change things, unfortunately. I don't mean this as an excuse, it's just an observation, but I see that my Greek friends are just resigned to the way things are. They shrug and throw up their hands and say "but what can we do?" and "that's the way things are!" when the subject of bribes comes up, for example.

And it's the same in a way with the recession. One of my very close friends is now supporting her sister. The sister lost her job and is not entitled to unemployment benefits, so has absolutely no income at all. Nothing to live on. She is now sleeping on her sister's sofa and relies on her for everything. When I talked to her recently, she just seemed resigned to her fate. No hope, nothing to look forward to, no sense that things might change in the future.

Betelguese I agree with you on everything!

Why can't people see what a millstone all this corruption is around their necks? Why are they not out there demanding that the Orthodox Church pay its fair share of taxes? Etc, etc etc.

Fair enough, the Church does do a fair bit of charity work. The girl I mentioned in my previous post received a food parcel from them, which was nice. But I think that they could do more.

Greece desperately needs a clean state to start out from. If only it were possible.

Re translations - I never realised Google translate was so poor, I've never really had cause to look at it before. Half the words seem to have been left in Greek and just transliterated into the Latin alphabet! Thank goodness human beings are still required to work in this area!

Just one more point - there is a form of unemployment benefit in Greece, but (a) it is a pittance and you cannot survive on it (b) large numbers of unemployed people are not actually entitled to it. This is why the official figures for the unemployed you hear on the news about Greece are a total joke, because those figures are based on the number of people receiving benefits. So many people are not entitled - the real numbers are much higher.

I was going to link to a Greek site, but I see the bbc have taken up this story

I feel very upset by this story. I do wonder how Greece can encourage growth and legality where people contribute their fair whack to society.

I did read an article many moons ago that said citizens in countries that suffered dictatorship have less faith in the state and are more reluctant for generations to invest in it.

I also think Greeks do not criticise the church enough- they must help.