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Cameron's adoptions idea

156 replies

2old2beamum · 09/03/2012 22:01

Our fantasic PM has decided adoption procedures must be quicker. Many of my friends and I have adopted several children with disabilities (we have adopted 8 sadly 3 have died) With the savage cuts proposed I am concerned children with disabilities will be left to stagnate in care costing far more than on benefits. (1 DS cost £5000/wk in residential care 1994)

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2old2beamum · 02/04/2012 20:51

Ok I think we both come from different ends but we both care. I am not highly educated why because I had 2 crap mothers (I would have studied medicine) and wish I had been removed so I will always be on the child's rights. I understand you feel strongly about birth parents and I can understand this, I would fight for mine to the end. We have adopted 8 and 2 were contested. I can't say what we would have done if the courts went against us but thank ?god we were OK. I am not as erudite as you but I hope you see my point of view.

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DontPutBeerInHisEar · 03/04/2012 12:34

2old2beamum ?we come from different ends but we both care?

Your post highlights a really important issue here. We need to properly acknowledge both ends of the spectrum, because there are children living with the consequences of each. For every child, whether they are removed or not, it is vital the decision making is steadfast and accountable.

Key professionals working with the process, including those here on this thread, admit the system is not perfect, and this can only mean children (and their families) fall through both ends of the net. We do indeed need to acknowledge and care about the fallout from each.

The issues of children remaining too long in abusive and neglectful homes or in care must of course be addressed, but in a way that doesn't abuse or neglect the rights of children to stay with a loving family where that is possible; through a process which provides adequate and timely assessment (?and monitoring and support?) and most importantly, one that is answerable, up to speed and open to challenge and change!

We also need to accept that decisions need to be made about a child?s future based on the information available, within appropriate & realistic timescales. But where information may be incomplete or flawed, or the process has timed-out, we have to ask questions about whether our system has enabled the best decisions to have been made for a child.

In such cases, where adoption is the decision (and this isn?t to undermine in any way the importance of other outcomes) I am interested to know what the repercussions are for the children, their adoptive and birth families when/if the system has failed in this way? Because I am not sure this has really been explored.

As caring human beings it is hard for us to look at this end, because we naturally want to focus purely on protecting children that rightly need protection.

But what is a child in this situation (and their adoptive family) likely to understand about reasons for their adoption? This understanding is important for an adoptee. How are they going to view society that has allowed these life changing decisions, if they have happened in error, without scrutiny?

Who do birth families turn to after such decisions have been made? Particularly since their voices seem lost in a cloud of stigma, secrecy and conspiracy theories. It seems that Family Courts, or even the European Courts, are the only places where these issues can be addressed, and this simply cannot remain the case.

Conspiracy theories, as far as I know, are often based on elements of truth. And this is the nitti-gritty of the issue here: What is the truth and how do we get to it so we can feel secure with our system?

2old2beamum · 03/04/2012 15:56

I agree all should be done to keep children with birth parents when being assessed but know of several children who suffered more neglect whilst the
assessment was being done. OK it is rare but very distressing.
Regarding the adopted children and adoptive parents dealing with the past I think you are right there should be some studies, I feel babies relinquished even at birth have feelings of rejection. We are ? fortunate all of ours have
quite severe to severe intellectual impairment so we do not have this problem. Your point has made me reflect, in the past we just lied.
Have only touched on a couple of your comments it is school holidays so I may be back!

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johnhemming · 03/04/2012 22:21

I understand you feel strongly about birth parents
I feel strongly that the state should only intervene when there is solid evidence that it should.

2old2beamum · 04/04/2012 08:44

No I feel the state should intervene very quickly I speak from experience.

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johnhemming · 04/04/2012 12:53

No I feel the state should intervene very quickly I speak from experience.
Whether or not there is any evidence?

2old2beamum · 04/04/2012 13:27

Parents can be very plausable and devious, children are too frightened to speak out and were not often believed Yes the evidence was there but ignored but I survived I now bow out, this was not the point of the thread!

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DontPutBeerInHisEar · 04/04/2012 23:37

Apologies 2old2beamum if you feel this has again drifted off topic. You had particular concerns around how children with disabilities will be affected by the new proposals around speeding up the process, and it seems we have veered again into more general aspects of this that affect all children.

Unfortunately I don't have the detailed knowledge around the specific issues you have raised, but I hope others have been able to provide you with some answers and continue to do so.

The issues that have been raised are clearly very real and emotive for all who have direct experience and I appreciate your earlier reply to my post, which I have also been taking some time to reflect on, in amongst Easter holiday chaos!

I am finding it very valuable to hear from all the differing angles people on this thread are coming from.

2old2beamum · 05/04/2012 22:20

Wrote long reply gone into the black hole where most of my stuff goes need to clean 2 bums & give drugs will try again tomorrow.

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DontPutBeerInHisEar · 05/04/2012 23:28

Darn pesky black hole

I just wish it could be a bit more helpfully selective sometimes Grin

2old2beamum · 06/04/2012 19:19

I will now try again. As I said before you raised a point that I hadn't really considered, probably as none of my DC's had disturbing backgrounds except 1 who sadly suffered so much brain damage he is unaware.
However my cousin has adopted 10 (3 sibling groups 4-2-4) The first 4 suffered severe neglect and are fairly level headed but have extremely low self esteem. The 2nd 2 were sexually abused, the eldest who can remember is not doing well and had a baby at 13. The final 4 BM was a substance abuser and despite intensive support was unable to kick the habit.
My cousin has always been honest with her children without bad mouthing the BP's and only telling them when they ask and impressing on them that they were loved by their BP's. The eldest 4 have now read their records and have made the decision to have no more contact. The middle 2 do not see their parents for obvious reasons. The youngest 4 still see their BP's but the eldest (8) says mum uses needles, makes me want to weep.
How does cousin and DH cope with their feelings they say its not about them but yes they get angry.
Are you studying or are you like me children must come 1st or both?

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DontPutBeerInHisEar · 08/04/2012 21:51

Children must always come first. I don?t think anyone here is saying anything else tbh.

My interest is mainly from being in a supportive role to a mother who lost her child to adoption, but where I am not convinced the system has helped the child (or her) in the best way.

I am also sister to someone who was adopted into my family.

I?m not formally studying but have previously (BC) worked in an area of public health as a trainer, so I have a conditioning in looking at the way things work and how services can be improved.

One of my concerns remains as to the accuracy of information given to adoptees and their adoptive parents, particularly in borderline cases where evidence is questionable, about reasons for adoption. Possibly some BPs are scapegoated in their records for system failings (not necessarily deliberately, though there may be aspects of cover up in some cases) and therefore children's views and feelings towards BPs may not be accurate.

It is important adoptees know the truth. Diagnoses, particularly relating to inherited medical conditions and/or mental illness must surely form a part of this. I would hope this is a key concern around this issue of reliability in expert witnesses.

Where assessments have been inadequate or poor, BPs could perhaps have some independently supported involvement in life story work (I believe these are usually put together by the LA) so their side can be put across.

Sorry, way off topic again! Perhaps I should start a different thread!!
All time for now, away for a few days Smile

johnhemming · 14/04/2012 20:29

A bit more on the substantive issue
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2128987/Children-stolen-state.html

johnhemming · 21/04/2012 17:54

Note the unstable bringing of the following children with many movements between foster carers. Each change of placement, including taking children into care, causes psychological damage. The period 6-18 months is absolutely key for development.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2132834/When-Cherry-adopted-angelic-sisters-thought-loving-home-heal-wounds-troubled-past-How-terrifyingly-wrong-was.html?ICO=most_read_module

Note I am not arguing that we should never take children into care, merely that the damage of taking them into care has to be taken into account in the assessments.

myfriendflicka · 29/04/2012 20:28

You realize this is the right wing press who all have their own agenda re adoption and may also have been asked to run these articles by government ministers to manipulate people support their views, don't you?

If not you are dangerously naive, and don't deserve to be taken seriously.

myfriendflicka · 29/04/2012 20:29

manipulate people TO support their views, sorry

johnhemming · 29/04/2012 22:04

You realize this is the right wing press who all have their own agenda re
adoption and may also have been asked to run these articles by government
ministers to manipulate people support their views, don't you?

If not you are dangerously naive, and don't deserve to be taken seriously.
I have the advantage of knowing the ministers concerned and that they are unhappy with the articles being run. However, that does not fit with your conspiracy theory so I presume you will ignore this.

There is a really serious problem in child protection in England and Wales which results in many children being taken wrongly from their parents and at times forcibly adopted. To me that matters. To some people it doesn't.

johnhemming · 01/05/2012 18:51

Channel 4 report from last night

DontPutBeerInHisEar · 22/06/2012 17:22

Not sure whether to start a new thread, but in the interest of balance, from a Google search:

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/apr/13/judge-shocked-social-workers-families

www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed96463

www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/30/03/2012/118118/adoption-reforms-make-job-harder-say-social-workers.htm

www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/02/04/2012/118120/family-courts-causing-most-adoption-delays.htm

www.ofsted.gov.uk/news/court-delays-keep-children-waiting-for-adoption-0

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18024654

www.mas.org.uk/masblog/2012/04/expert-witness-family-courts/ (I know nothing about this organisation, but they provide another interesting perspective on the issues)

www.pac.org.uk/News/PAC+CEO+responds+to+Department+for+Education+Action+Plan+for+Adoption

In the Family Law article, Dr Heather Payne, the Chair of the Experts Committee of the Family Justice Council is quoted:

?Flawed experts reports are unlikely to mislead the court to the extent that perverse decisions are taken but flawed reports do not assist the court in its decision-making and there is a need for better quality control.?

Perverse decisions may be considered unlikely, but this is not to say they are impossible, or don?t happen. Only full investigative research will establish this beyond doubt.

Even if it is only for a minority, we will all have to at some point accept that poor practice does occur. I?m not sure if anyone really thinks about what to do (or even thinks about the need for knowing what to do) until they are actually faced with the situation. And then, I expect many are too scared or traumatised, or simply don?t have the necessary life experience/skills, to be able to do anything constructive about it.

Can anyone shed any positive light on the kinds of impartial or informal support systems birth families can turn to if they are not happy with the way their case is being handled? Some may find this helpful.

I?m thinking advocacy services as a starter, particularly if there are mental health concerns.