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Cameron's adoptions idea

156 replies

2old2beamum · 09/03/2012 22:01

Our fantasic PM has decided adoption procedures must be quicker. Many of my friends and I have adopted several children with disabilities (we have adopted 8 sadly 3 have died) With the savage cuts proposed I am concerned children with disabilities will be left to stagnate in care costing far more than on benefits. (1 DS cost £5000/wk in residential care 1994)

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NanaNina · 18/03/2012 14:34

Edam As you will see I am not prepared to engage with JH anymore and would like to get back to the original topic.

However I would be interested in your reply to my recent post?

2old2beamum · 18/03/2012 15:00

As the original poster my concern is believe it or not are THE CHILDREN not their parents or SW's or barristers. As an adopter of 8 children their parents are not my responsibility. My worry is disabled children will languish in care due to £26000 benefit cap. When you have disabled children you need to be at home, I gave up a good career for my children I do not regret it but they are costly little buggers (nearest hospital 28 miles away school 24 miles away day services 25 miles away) Please can someone assure me disabled children will not sit on the shelf.

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EdithWeston · 18/03/2012 15:24

2old2beamum: the Plan in full isn't available yet, so we don't know properly what is included nor who has been consulted. The snippets that have been said publicly so far do not mention disabled children specifically. But nothing that has been said that suggests their position will be worsened, and it is possible that new provisions will apply to them as much as to anyone else, so there may even be an improvement.

I think though, that it will be necessary to wait to see what has actually been proposed before before drawing any conclusions.

johnhemming · 18/03/2012 15:32

Nananina said "Look JH just sod off NOW. You get more and more unbelievable and how you dare state that Spero and me are not providing any evidence to support our claims."

The simple solution to this is to find some evidence that I have said that "all lawyers are corrupt."

Where is the evidence?

If you cannot either
a) Accept that you are wrong ... or
b) Provide the evidence
then why should anyone take anything you say seriously. (or indeed spero).

Now I could say this is not surprising given that you are a social worker and there are social workers who are happy to make assertions without any evidence and spero is a family court barrister who also thinks this also is acceptable. However, I personally think that there should be evidence.

The evidence we have last week is a report that looked at 126 bundles in 180 cases in three courts and found that 2/3rds of the psycholgical expert reports were "Poor" or "very poor".

Spero · 18/03/2012 16:34

I am sorry this has got so off topic. I hope also that disabled children will not suffer, butI am not optimistic.

I am not going to engage with JH further, other than to say there is plentiful evidence about his views regarding the family justice system in many threads on here, many to links to you tube videos.

I shall refer to just one. JHreferred to the system as 'evil' before Wall LJ. That claim is repeated on his website, or at least it was when Wall LJ read it. I have linked again to that judgment and I hope it is widely read by anyone tempted t sympathise with JH.

JH do you stand by that assertion that the family law system is evil?

I find myself dipping in and out of these topics when I have a spare moment, which is clearly not a helpful thing to do as it would appear to be a full time job to responsibly and effectively counter the more lunatic assertions of those who believe an entire legal system is based on kidnapping children.

So I will bow out, and sorry again op.

johnhemming · 18/03/2012 17:00

I think a system in which children are removed from families and adopted based upon evidence which according to research is "poor" or "very poor" 65% of the time is evil yes.

2old2beamum · 18/03/2012 17:07

Thanks Spero I am glad someone can understand my deep concerns.
Edith this has nothing to do with legislation but with the £26000 benefit cut exprienced adopters will be unable to adopt SN children due to financial restrictions. We will struggle and we work bloody hard. Like spero I bow out.
Sorry kids I can do no more.

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NanaNina · 18/03/2012 20:11

20ldtobeamum - sorry for the way in which this thread became distorted but this always happens when JH pops up. Seems like MN are concerned as some of my posts and Spero's and even JH's have been deleted. I never ever make personal attacks on anyone on other threads but it's difficult when he is making completely unfounded allegations. Anyway apologies to anyone (other than him) who have been offended.

However - back to the begining. I am a bit puzzled as to why this £26,000 cap on benefits is going to affect disabled children. Are you a foster carer or adopter. If the former, you will surely be getting mandatory fostering allowances from the LA, together with DLA. If you are an adoptor I assume you are getting discretionary adoption allowances and DLA. Any payments made by the LA will not be benefits of course.

I know some of the detail of the "Welfare to Work" programme which I think is going to affect the most disabled people in our society, but haven't heard anything about payments to disabled chidren. Can you advise?

johnhemming · 18/03/2012 20:27

If people get DLA they are AFAIK exempted from the benefits cap.

2old2beamum · 18/03/2012 21:35

NanaNina all are adopted 2 are children the other 3 are now adults but not

capable of work and I am concerned at the £26000 cap per household, I will be delighted to be corrected if wrong My 2 DC's are totally dependant for all their care. I think the wording per household rings alarm bells for me. Our 13yr old gets an adoption allowance of £76/week barely covers hosp appts some 200 miles away. Have also heard that if families get free schoolmeals these will also be counted as a benefit even if they don't have them. Hopefully I am wrong.

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NanaNina · 18/03/2012 23:18

I honestly don't know, but I think it's possible that you are worrying unnecessarily. I think this cap relates to the total benefits e.g. income support (if there is still such a thing) Job Seekers Allowance and Housing Benefit. I know that incapacity/invalidity benefit have been replaced with Employment Support Allowance and this is divided into "Total Support" equivalent to benefits received prior to the phasing out of Incapacity/Invalidity benefits, and Work Related Groups (where someone is deemed capable of work, but needs support) I just don't know where DLA fits in. Why don't you contact your local Job Centre Plus or the Ministry of Work and Pensions to get clarification on this issue and hopefully set your mind at rest.

I think the issue about school meals being counted as benefit is not the case.

johnhemming · 19/03/2012 10:12

School meals are not counted.

DontPutBeerInHisEar · 20/03/2012 10:45

Interesting item on Woman's hour ATM
Currently discussing importance of information for adoptees about reasons for their adoption, amongst other things

NanaNina · 20/03/2012 14:20

I caught some of it - a birthmother who had been in touch with her son, and an adoptee who was working in a voluntary capacity for a post-adoption organisation. These organisations are very good as they work with what is called the "adoption triangle" birthmother, adoptive mother, and adoptee.

It is so sad that so many girls were forced to give up their baby for adoption in the 50s 60s and into the 70s. I would have had to give up my son (born in 1967 and me not married) had it not been for the love and support of my parents.

In my work as a social worker I often worked with adult adoptees who were trying to trace their birth mother, and bms trying to trace their adopted children. It was of course a minefield and it was a very bumpy ride for some of these people with emotions running very high. One of the interesting things that we discovered was that if a bm finally traced a son, there would on occasions be a relationship that became very emotionally close, and caused great jealousy between the bm and her partner/husband. I worked with a bm who found her adopted son and they spent hours talking to each other on the phone several times a week and she told me her husband was fed up with it.

She then told me that she and her son had arranged to spend a weekend together and did I think this was a good idea. I said I wasn't sure and it would in all probability make her husband annoyed or even jealous. Intuitively I knew that this bm (who was very attractive) was falling in love with her son, but I couldn't trust my intuition. However we found out from other LAs and adoption support organisations that this had become quite a widespread phenomona (there was a term that was used but I can't remember it now) On hearing this I told the bm that I didn't think it was a good idea to spend the weekend together. However I called one morning by appointment (and she had forgotten) but she came downstairs in a dressing gown looking very flushed and alarmed that I was on the doorstep. I knew what was happening.

I talked it through with colleagues and we agreed there was nothing we could do about it, other than to warn bms that this could happen. The bm said she did not need any more support so I don't know what happened.

A few months later I saw on the TV that Claire Short (Labour MP for Ladywood in Birmingham) had been reunited with her adoption son, and she was actually putting her arm right up his coat sleeve.....we agreed at work next day that this could be the start of an emotional r.ship. I think it can be understood in terms of remembering how we wanted to kiss our babies all over and feel them all over etc and these bms were prevented from doing this, and so it came out years later when they were reunited. The bm on WH this morning said she had been told off by a nun in the Mother & Baby Home for kissing her child and told if she had wanted a baby to keep she should have got married first.

I was treated very badly in the small maternity home in my hometown when my son was born in 1967. There was a sister (who really was called sister Dick) and she was cruel and when I said the pain was bad she said "you should have thought of that before you fornicated" and told me at 9.00 in the morning when I was in labour that I was going to be there all day and all night and the pain would get much worse.......my son was born at 11.10 am. She must have known how far gone I was in labour. I will never forget that - cruel woman.

Ah well - good old days eh - I think not

n

johnhemming · 22/03/2012 20:04

It is so sad that so many girls were forced to give up their baby for adoption in the 50s 60s and into the 70s.

And what is so good about the current system that forces the victims of domestic violence to have their babies adopted?

I spoke more on the issues in this area on Wednesday:
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201212/cmhansrd/cm120321/halltext/120321h0002.htm#12032149000469

Lilka · 22/03/2012 23:05

NanaNina - you are thinking of genetic attration/genetic sexual attraction? I think Norcap and similar counsel a large amount of relatives every year who experience this. It's much more common in siblings than parents/children though

JH - I know quite a few survivors of domestic violence, a couple have had SS involvement, none of them lost their children or even came close to it.

johnhemming · 23/03/2012 07:34

It does happen, however.

swanthingafteranother · 30/03/2012 19:27

I read the Daily Mail article which JohnHemming has linked. In fact my husband alerted me to it because I have been (mildly)depressed recently and he was concerned about interference from social services over our parenting, as we were already in the system with an ASD child. (my depression turned out to be an easily curable thyroid problem but that's by the by)
Actually, I was really glad I had read a different version of these opinions and views from NanaNina and others on the adoptions thread, and dismissed a lot of what I reading in the Daily Mail as probably distorted.
In fact I was wondering whether there was going to be discussion of this article in "In the News" and what other people thought of it, as it was so inflammatory.

Or is there any truth in it, despite the John Hemming angle - the mention of John Hemming was what made me think twice.

johnhemming · 30/03/2012 23:24

There are good practitioners who do their jobs properly. Not all are bad.

However, there is also dreadful practise that would not be tolerated were it to be publicly known.

johnhemming · 01/04/2012 09:43

another story
www.telegraph.co.uk/family/9178021/The-doctor-who-took-my-baby-away.html

Still more to come although it may take a week or so.

johnhemming · 01/04/2012 21:53

For those interested in this issue:
www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/9177265/UK-social-workers-snatch-a-child-from-France.html
Is an odd one because the family left the UK in November and the child was born in I think February in France, but the child was still taken back to the UK.

2old2beamum · 02/04/2012 17:29

I am very sad for the parents who have had a child removed, however I am afraid I come from the other side of the fence. Our beautiful DS was left with his birth mother following his birth after she had 2 DC's removed due to habitual heroin abuse. She was allowed to take him home as she had been good and ?stayed clean whilst pregnant. Move forward 8months grandparent visited as mother did not answer 'phone and found off her head with heroin,
baby virtually dead with pneumococcal meningitis. Result this child is now
deafblind, cerebral palsy, epilepsy and is tube fed. His life is full of pain. Why
was he not removed at birth, the child's interests must always come first.

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johnhemming · 02/04/2012 18:13

Of course that is not an argument to allow rubbishy evidence from experts in court. In fact it is argument for good solid decisionmaking.