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Shocking article considers whether babies have 'moral right to life'. WARNING: distressing content

249 replies

chandellina · 29/02/2012 16:35

following on last week's abortion thread, anyone care to jump in on this one?

The article, published in the Journal of Medical Ethics, says newborn babies are not ?actual persons? and do not have a ?moral right to life?. The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.

Telegraph story

OP posts:
IUseTooMuchKitchenRoll · 29/02/2012 18:51

For non medical reasons I should have said.

AmberLeaf · 29/02/2012 18:54

Kitsilano and Devora, we're not going to get a reasoned ethical debate on here though are we?

Sevenfold · 29/02/2012 18:54

IUseTooMuchKitchenRoll so you think murdering new borns is ok?

KalSkirata · 29/02/2012 18:54

'Sevenfold, I think you are seriously misinterpreting the views on this thread. What I was saying - and others too, I think - is that ethics debates often focus on a wild proposition in order to test out logic, applicability, sustainability etc. So you will find debates on, for example, if it's ok to kill a cow for its meat, why is it not ok to kill your mother? It's not meant to be treated as a serious proposal, it's a wacky proposition for the purposes of testing the powers of reasoned argument.'

I think its disturbing because in the past these ethics debates have been turned into action with eugenics. In many countries.

Devora · 29/02/2012 18:57

No, Amber, it is pretty obviously to me that we have a conversation going on here in which the two sides are completely failing to connect Grin

So. I'll pop back at 7.20pm to see if I've won my bet (which none of you has had the gumption to take me up on) but other than that I'm keeping me powder dry.

GrahamTribe · 29/02/2012 19:00

"I think its disturbing because in the past these ethics debates have been turned into action with eugenics. In many countries."

Genuine question. Do posters think that this article is likely to result in a Parliamentary review of the law on abortion? And that a revew of and change in the law regarding abortion cut off times would result in the threshold being raised?

Trills · 29/02/2012 19:01

I bet it'll still be up in 20 minutes.

I'll be out at the cinema so I won't know... but if I think MNHQ know the difference between an intellectual exercise and advocating killing babies.

learningtofly · 29/02/2012 19:09

graham no I don't think it will influence any party policies.

I believe that because the debate on abortion is so polarizing no party would be able to take the fallout politically whichever way they went. I believe this evident by the lots of talking about changing the law but no action being taken because its easier for them to maintain the status quo - rightly or wrongly

theonewiththenoisychild · 29/02/2012 19:21

This so called after birth abortion is and always will be MURDER!

Booboostoo · 29/02/2012 19:23

I am a philosopher and I find the Telegraph article absolutely appalling.

The authors of the academic paper are not 'experts' in the sense of being in some priviledged position with respect to deciding what should or should not happen to actual babies nor are they making recommendations for actual policy. They are debating academic questions within a particular context, one that has a technical understanding of personhood. Within that debate it is not uncommon to arrive at the conclusion that if it is morally permissible to kill foetuses on the grounds that they are not persons, then by analogy it is morally permissible to kill infants on the grounds that they are also not persons.

I have not had a chance to read the article in question, but there are numerous responses to this line of thought:

  • one can accept the conclusion
  • one can accept the analogy but conclude that therefore it is morally impermissible to kill both foetuses and infants
  • one can dispute the definition of personhood in use to draw the analogy
  • one can accept the definition of personhood but reject the importance of the concept in debates over life or death decisions
and so on.

Either way this is a complex academic debate that is woefully misrepresented in the Telegraph article, purely for sensationalist reasons.

Booboostoo · 29/02/2012 19:27

"I think it is disturbing because in the past these ethics debates have been turned into action with eugenics. In many countries."

I would be grateful for some historical examples of this please as it is generally my understanding that suppressing academic freedom of expression that goes hand in hand with autocratic, ultra-right wing, dictatorial policies that tend to result in the marginalisation of certain segments of the population.

The philosophical position that arguments about the permissibility of abortion can be extended to the permissiblity of infanticide has been widerly discussed in the passed, see for example the work of Peter Singer and John Harris, to the point where, if anything, I would say that a paper arguing for this position would be in danger of being seriously unoriginal.

DilysPrice · 29/02/2012 19:32

Quite right booboostoo. Headline should be "Theorists argue that ..."
Doesn't look quite so newsworthy then does it.

Or even "Some ethical theorists choose to agree with some previous ethical theorists" - quick, stop the press!

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 29/02/2012 19:35

Iusetoomuch I am really suprised that you 'misrembered' Sevenfold's views on the abortion thread (wasnt it started by the same OP - could be wrong I do tend to forget things a lot LOL).

Its not like they were not explained several times by several different posters.
It was a major theme of the thread. It came up dozens of times.

But you forgot? Hmm

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 29/02/2012 19:36

The article is bollocks.
I am not suprised people are upset.

Pretty crap to use it to further the prolife debate though innit?

KalSkirata · 29/02/2012 19:37

here
Dont think most of those countries that engaged in Eugenics were ultra anything.

IUseTooMuchKitchenRoll · 29/02/2012 19:48

Mrs De Vere, the point about the same rules applying to disabled babies as non disabled babies I'd come up a lot, butit was a long thread! And there were a few people posting that they supported abortion to term without mentioning disability.

Sevenfold, no, of course I don't think murdering newborns is ok. Hmm Where have I indicted that I do? Nor do I think murdering babies in utero is ok, SN or not, but we did that on the other thread.

Kitsilano · 29/02/2012 19:52

Amberleaf - apparently not - though Booboostoo clearly gets it. Unfortunately the knee jerk, emotive response on here is exactly what The Telegraph was aiming for and will have them rubbing their hands with glee.

If only people could see it for what it is. Theoretical, intellectual reasoning - valid, possibly interesting but of course utterly unoriginal. I wrote most of this in an essay as a student 20 years ago. Funnily enough the Telegraph didn't publish me...

LilacWaltz · 29/02/2012 19:55

God this is awful!!
Not read everything, but how?? How do 'they' propose to end these little lives?? In what way do they say is humane? And who would do it?

I feel wicked even talking about this by the way.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 29/02/2012 20:04

Well I might be misremembering the thread Ilove but I am fairly sure you engaged several times with Sevenfold and her views were clarified beyond any doubt.

Thats why I find your post on this thread slightly strange and I cant help but wonder what your agenda is.

Lougle · 29/02/2012 20:04

This is emotive. How can it not be? There are those of you with NT children, who can conceptualise the argument. Then there are those of us who know that it is OUR children who are being made 'expendable' or even, worse, illegitimate.

Posters like Kalskirata, sevenfold, 2old2bemum, lougle, Sanctimoanyarse (possibly more, I only pick those names because I know that they are all posters who have a child who is seen as 'damaged goods' by some Sad) read these threads, then they realise that no matter how much effort they plough in to making every day count for their child, that there are those who think that every one of those days is wasted.

SolidgoldBrass says "Thing is, I think this particular debate is a bit spurious as it is so very unlikely that a baby will be born with severe disabilities that are a) obvious at the moment of birth and b) not obvious beforehand. I'm aware that sometimes birth trauma can cause severe brain damage but that wouldn't necessarily be instantly clear.
So if (for instance) a woman was carrying a foetus that was massively encephalic, had Harlequin syndrome or some other problem that would mean its life post birth would be very short and possibly very painful, she would most likely be aware of this before the child was born and able to opt to terminate the pregnancy."

It happens more often than you'd like to think. I know personally one woman who had been given low risk for a condition routinely screened for, gave birth and her baby was admitted to scbu for a bit of low sugar. She found out about her DD's diagnosis when a consultant saw her and started talking about her child's 'complications' (she thought - low blood sugar) and it dawned on her that no one had actually told her about her baby having a genetic condition. Her baby was affected by the condition enough to need two or three surgeries.

I myself was scanned relatively frequently in pregnancy for various reasons. No abnormality detected. Induced on the day before my due date as showing small for dates. Wasn't allowed home until a SpR reviewed DD. I demanded to know why, so a junior doc confessed that a midwife thought DD looked 'Downs syndrome'. Now, I was a nurse who had worked on SCBU. I checked DD over...no sandal wedge toe, no irregular creasing, etc., so I was unsurprised when the SpR said 'nahh just been squashed down a birth canal'. Now, 6 years on, DD1 goes to special school, GDD, LD, epilepsy and dysmorphic features. The midwife wasn't as wrong as they thought.

There is a fantastic poster on the SN boards whose threads started off in bereavement. She gave birth to a beautiful baby, then was told that she would die. No prior warning at all. Well that baby has stuck her fingers up to the medical profession and is still going - good girl.

For me, it's that slippery slope. Those of you who are for assisted death. It starts out that if someone can decide they want to die, they should be helped to do it as easily as possible. Then, people think 'ah, but so and so would want to die, he/she just can't tell us...before long, you'll have people making judgements on someone elses quality of life.

As someone said before, what changes a foetus into a baby? Going down a birth canal? No...we still call foetuses removed from their 'host' with a caesarean a 'baby' afterwards. So it can't be that. Is it the fact that they are outside?

Doesn't it seem ludicrous that a 34 week baby outside the womb could have more rights than a 40 week foetus in the womb?

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 29/02/2012 20:10

I work with very young children with a range of disabilities and I agree with Lougle that many detectable conditions are not known about until birth.

Many of our parents are young and therefore not seen as high risk and many of the mothers had antenatal (or lack of it) abroad.

There are also thousands of severe conditions that cannot be screened for. They do not show up on scans or if they do they show up as slight abnormalities of certain organs or growth and the true nature of the disablity is not apparent until birth.

IUseTooMuchKitchenRoll · 29/02/2012 20:14

Agenda?

There isn't one. I haven't said anything here that contradicts what I said on the other thread.

Confused

Or do you just want to have a pop for fun?

RowanMumsnet · 29/02/2012 20:50

Hello

We've edited the thread title so that posters can get an idea of the content of this thread.

Much as we completely understand the distress and revulsion caused by some of the things under discussion, on balance we don't think it would be right for us to censor this debate, particularly as the topic has been covered by a major national newspaper.

If you've reported the thread and haven't received a reply yet, apologies - you will be getting one soon.

Thanks
MNHQ

wannaBe · 29/02/2012 21:00

The reason why this "debate" upsets people is because it is only applied to a certain sub-section of society. I wasn't actually on last week's abortion thread but I have been on many that have come before it.

If you're looking at the title of the article/thread, then I actually do agree that there is no difference between aborting a baby at term and killing it at birth. Once a baby is viable outside the uterus then the two things are IMO the same.

The difference for me is that no-one would advocate aborting a nt baby at term any more than they would consider killing one at birth, whereas aborting a disabled baby at term is still legal, and there is surely only a matter of pushes between that and killing it at birth, and lots of people don't seem to have an issue with that. And even many of those that claim to have an issue with that seem to see a line that can be drawn i.e. maybe not ok to kill a baby with downs, but perhaps ok to kill one that has severe brain damage/life-limiting heart defect/severe physical deformaties. And the thing is, the line is in a different place for different people, so there can never be a definitive answer iyswim.

The rule should be one for all IMO. If it's ok t euthanise a baby at birth because it is disabled, then it should be ok to euthanise one that isn't. And given no-one will ever agree with that stance, I think there's no argument to be had.

wannaBe · 29/02/2012 21:09

also, why just at birth? There are after all, conditions which can mean a baby will regress shortly after birth. Why if a baby is considered fit for euthanasia after birth should they not be considered fit for euthanasia one, six,twelve months after? What makes a newborn different to a six month old? or a toddler? or a child born healthy but with a life-limiting condition that will mean that child regressing two, three, four years into its life? Where do you draw a line?

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