Tories order Police to halt workfare demos

[minimathsmouse]

In the mail on Sunday it is reported that IDS has ordered the police to step in and stop ANY demonstration against workfare.

I think this seems to be an attack on freedom of speech, I wondered if other people think the same or do you believe that even in a democracy the state should have the power to stop "some" opposition.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106601/Tories-order-police-halt-workfare-demos-MP-makes-formal-protest-BBC-bias-favour-hard-Left-militants.html?ITO=1490

BRILLIANT

Workfare should be public sector jobs though, or like community service type things. Why shouldn't people work for JSA?

I post against workfare on here; I am not ahrd left and I most certainly have not infiltrated anything- heck under the names Peachy and the one before that I have been here longer than almost anyone!

Along with the crap about socialist worker's party (presumably the only group of workers who are NOT morally superior to everyone else ;) ) it's nasty planned dismissing of any view that isn't their own as corrupt.

TBM

I have no problem with non compulsory workfare, my issues with compulsory are as follows:

1. JSA claimants have very often being paying into the system for many eyars, it's not called national INSURANCE for nothing, and dismissing them all as workshy and inexperienced is wrong, especially with reedundancy rates the way they are.

1. Many people are placed on JSA right now whilst appealing ATOS ESA finding; the overturn rate in sectors such as MH is above 70%. So those people are placed in the impossible position of being expected to work when they can't or face losing benefits. This is likely to become more common when the policy of ending teh 'appeals rate' of ESA comes in and those appealing have to either go on JSA or stop their claim.

1. Those with chidlren are expected to source their own childcare; given that some areas have six month waits for childcare and some workfare schemes were expecting shift work, that puts parents in an impossible position.

1. We have NMW for a reason; it's what an hour's wage is worth.

1. Placing people into positions that could be fulfilled by paying staff works against the entire economy. Work matters; reduing the number of available jobs in a time when 22 people chase each vacancy by funding employers to take people for free is ridiculous even if morally one agrees with workfare.

1. The only one that affects me- under Universal Credit and conditionality workfare will be expanded; at the moment I am exempt and get carer's Allowance. Under UC they will more than halve those that qualify. My reason for not working is childcare; therefore if I am placed on workfare (we need tax credits ATM) the options will be either to refuse and lose the benefits that top up our income; my DH to give up WORK to care for the disabled boys; or place the disabled boys into state care. Dh was made redundant and is now self employed and making a profit but not a huge one; but he needs me to remain as carer at elast PT to be able to continue. UC however will require me to work 20-something hours PW. AS an example this week I have had or will have an appointment EVERY day and if I cannot attend he will have to (Mon- paeds; Tues-GP; Weds- SLT for ds3; Thurs- ds3's IEP at school; Fri- SLT for ds4), and you can't manage a business involving retail around that.

Hopefully I will be able to return to work anyway in the next 6 months nut my ideal would be about 16 hours, far more workable.

OMFG @ that Daily Mail article. Marvellous. (Maybe they've been hacked.)

I still can't get over the idea that all the workfare opponents on here are leftist infiltrators. I would never have suspected MoreBeta

Friend of mine was a local councillor.

Member of the public suggested he make the local unemployed do public service landscaping new roads.

His reply? "That's a brilliant idea, madam. Would what you like me to do with staff we currently pay to do this job? Make them unemployed?"

I just hope the interns who wrote the story were well paid.

SK what wise friends you have.

I am a moderate socialist by which I mean I would like to see equality and human life put before profit and I would like to see fundamental reform of the economic system. I am not an anti-capitalist and I seriously hate being called an anarchist enemy of the state.

I think the GOV propaganda machine is either very cunning in misleading people to believe socialists don't like the state, when the Right are actually trying to shrink the state, therefore it could be argued that Grayling is a greater friend to anarchy than me

The daily mail piece is interesting but it still doesn't cut to the main argument and it's so slow to make it's point, few people will read it in it's entirety.

.............Either cunning or we really are being ruled by an elite who through accident got where they are. It sure wasn't talent and intelligence.

That leads me to conclude.......accident of birth, which means lots of talent will be squandered by their schemes and I fully expect to hear within a few years, "we don't have enough scientists, enough engineers, maths teachers or doctors, we must import some!"

Its the complete lack of political awareness that bother me.

In the same week that bankers working for failed state owned banks are getting millions in bonuses to give them an incentive to continue working (their bonus was not cut by the way despite what the news reports said) people who desperately want a paying job are to be compelled to work for nothing.

Yes, it isn't just politics though, it's cruelly denying some people of a life worth living.

To what extent do these people realise that this is a symbiotic relationship.
If you impoverish people there will be no demand, no growth and therefore no profit.

Ah mini

you think accident of birth

Sadly my acquaintance who IS in that class would say genetic superiority

(though I accept that particular waste of space is far more crass than your average right-winger; suspect he;s not far off the views of those who actually hold power atm however)

Sancti, how small minded the elite can be!

A friend of mine who was born into wealth and an Eton ed, now works for the enemyGoldman Sachs. He said something quite worthy of approval though. He conceded that his class had historically not bred from their best stock. According to him many aristos had sent their first born into the priest hood and therefore depleted their reserves!!!!!!

Needless to say I actually quite like him but I can't help thinking that state ed lets many bright kids down and there is no political will to educate the poor, only government put downs designed to neuter us when we are told it's failing,
it's failing.......SO FIX IT !

That's so true

I copme from a council house, messed up childhood etc. I am close to finishing an MA; sister manages a chain of nurseries, otehr one is highly qualified in her field.

Amnd yet I STILL feel second class, underserving,, as if I do not belong.

That sense of being outside is the biggest hurdle (apart fro carer status) I now face

I'll catch up on the thread later, but I just want to say HAHAHAHAHAHAHA to the idea of me being a 'hard-left extremist'.

I was a twat who voted FOR the Tories in the elections, misguidingly believing their assertations that they would not hurt the disabled (I though DC might just understand what it is like to have a disability in the family...), and that he wouldn't restructure the NHS.

I will readily admit to being a twat - who will now NEVER vote Tory again! THAT is this Government's legacy to a first-time voter. (I was one of the never-bothered before).

And the Lib-Dems are just sycophantic power-hungry brown-nosers who will ALSO not be getting my vote in the next election.

OK, so that now makes me a Labour voter in the next election - but 'hard-left extremist'?! I'm about to bake my DD's birthday cake with ingredients bought from Sainsbury's, not go and chain myself to the nearest Tesco's store!

YES, I may be vociferous in my hatred of the various work-for-welfare schemes - but that is because I feel that it is circumventing the NMW rules, providing big businesses with free labour, undermining the idea of a fair day's pay for a fair day's work, and taking PAID employment opportunities AWAY from those in low-paid retail jobs, and a step back towards serfdom - but I HARDLY think that makes me some sort of extremist.

AND I have been posting on MN for over 7 years in various names - I have ONLY started chatting on the politics and in the news threads since the election. That's NOT 'infiltrating MN', it's using MN as a platform to air my views on the stupidity of the work-for welfare programs being made mandatory, on people having their benefits STOPPED for refusing to undermine the value of their labour from £6.08/hr to £1.92/hr, for using this scheme to provide their cronies and party political donators with free labour.

VASTLY different IMO!

Has anyone read the article about the "Merlin Standard", and how all these people are just materials in a "supply chain"?

Isn't it amazing that Tesco's are now looking at Employing 20,000 (paid) workers! Is that because they won't be taking free ones?

I'm pleased that the exposure of this has apparently produced one good result, other companies are invited to follow Tesco's lead, shout it from the rooftops, and recover customers/respect !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is this going to leave the Merlin Standard supply chain?

SanctiMoanyArse -

1. Many people are placed on JSA right now whilst appealing ATOS ESA finding; the overturn rate in sectors such as MH is above 70%. So those people are placed in the impossible position of being expected to work when they can't or face losing benefits. This is likely to become more common when the policy of ending teh 'appeals rate' of ESA comes in and those appealing have to either go on JSA or stop their claim.

How can this be legal, I paid my contributions, as with any insurance policy, to cover times like this.

I've received my appointment , for the Jobcentre, already, and have no idea what is happening with my appeal. Does anyone know what the procedure is?

I can't even stand, some days, and walking is not good. I have hardly driven, since the painkilling patches, and can't use the bus. Where do I go from here?

minimathsmouse -

" I fully expect to hear within a few years, "we don't have enough scientists, enough engineers, maths teachers or doctors, we must import some!" -

we have been sliding into this position for some time, IMHO, as many said when apprenticeships were dwindling, and pointed out that the further education should be available to those who had the ability/aptitude, not just those with the money/connections!

takingbackmonday - I agree, about people doing something for JSA. However, I think it should be the old Community Enterprise Programme type of scheme. People got paid a little extra, on top of Unemployment Benefit/Income Support, and work was on local community projects, NEVER for a profit-making organisation! I worked in a Jobcentre, at the time, and we had queues of people , waiting to go on this, and people asking for their time on it to be extended! It saved local councils money, and helped those who needed it.

I do not think anyone, who really is sick, should even be on JSA, and I do not believe there should be any conditionality (other than being certified sick, BY A DOCTOR/MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, not ATOS)for getting ESA (IB,as it was). If you are sick, you should not be harassed about working (I always thought employers were not allowed to harass a sick person, so why can the Government?).

I just don't want my son to grow up in a country with shanty towns/slums on the edge of every city like I've seen in the 3rd world. That's the direction we are going in.

I also thought we'd banned indentured labour. The welfare state was set up so that everyone could have access to food, shelter, healthcare, education, security in old age, and the public agreed to fund it via national insurance and taxes. Nannysylv - everyting you say is so true.

That covenant with the public has been broken, in favour of welfare for corporates and banks who do all they can to avoid contributing to wider society by paying taxes at a fair rate etc.

That doesn't make me an extremist, it just makes me an ordinary disillusioned Mum, same as millions of others as I see all the good things about UK society being cast away like broken toys by a bunch of spoilt brats with no empathy towards the people who elected them to govern.

The latest news on train fares suprised me yesterday. Affordable transport is critical to a vibrant, healthy economy. People will be priced out of being able to take jobs in other towns - more stagnation of opportunity.

Goverment policy just seems so counterproductive on too many levels right now.

If they got rid of leeches like A4E, ATOS included, and stuck with civil servants in Jobcentres, it would not be half as expensive, and would be more transparent than this lunacy. I once worked for a "long-term-unemployed training/placement" company, and it is open to hidden misbehaviour, at the public's expense. I bet, if the figures were compared, taking into account all the costs (appeals, administration of benefit changes, further health damage, suicides, etc), it would emerge that the old-fashioned systems were more economically productive, and more HUMANE!

bochead - I feel sorry for all of you who have children growing up in/to this shambles. Governments appear to be more deceitful than ever, and I don't see much evidence of their "we're all in this together" comments being practised! As long as they can fiddle cheap labour/housing/socialising, and huge salaries, they really don't care!

There is a very good book by Lyndsey Handley called 'Estates' which is about the 'invisible wall' that people from low income families-especially those from council estates- can face. Interesting ideas in it.

Nannasylv, I'm just having a read through the "Merlin Standard"

There will be a demo outside of the DWP meeting with the companies involved. The meeting is titled "Tapping into talent and putting companies at the heart of the work programme" On the 26th March. Info can be found here johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/

So just when we thought that private contractors and companies actually wanted free labour and had been twisting the ears of our established elite, it now appears that the right wing are actually working hard to sell the idea to them. I rather think Government and the greedy bosses are just one and the same.