Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

workfare - does anyone have a defence for it?

85 replies

nkf · 23/02/2012 13:18

Or do I really have to start travelling miles to the co-op? I'm sure I do but what is the argument in its favour?

OP posts:
carernotasaint · 29/02/2012 14:24

Bob the young people who had praise for it were working in Greggs head office.
Dont you think the response would have been different if they had asked jobseekers doing placements in the actual bakeries/shops sweating and cooking sausage rolls for £53 or £67 a week!

bobthebuddha · 29/02/2012 14:41

I don't know, carernotasaint, because I'm not going to decide the opinion of people placed at shop-level without hearing directly from them. Are you saying that if the young people work in head office that their views don't count, even if they got a permanent job as a result?

limitedperiodonly · 29/02/2012 15:31

Chris Grayling has just announced that his meeting today with employers itching to join this scheme went so well that he's signed up Airbus, Hewlett Packard and Centerparcs.

Mind you, this is the man who hysterically claimed that the SWP had hacked his email account to terrify participating companies into backing out but seems not to have made a complaint to the police about this serious crime.

Anyway, whatever the truth, I feel a fresh letter-writing campaign coming on.

In other news: Dave announced today that more than 200 small businesses contacted his office keen to give training to the unemployed get free labour.

I bet they did.

bobthebuddha · 29/02/2012 16:06

limitedperiodonly, out of curiosity, did you do letter writing campaigns when Labour was in & we had New Deal?

limitedperiodonly · 29/02/2012 16:15

No I didn't bobthebuddha. I didn't realise. But better late than never. There is, after all, a chance for the Tories to reverse this awful policy.

I note the BHF are still in on this. I must write another letter.

bobthebuddha · 29/02/2012 16:34

You didn't realise? Did no-one else? There was quite a lot of press coverage at the time.

Check this SW article from 1999 - it links through from the Wiki page on New Deal. What's changed, apart from the outrage? The article uses the phrase that we're seeing so much now, 'slave labour' & talks about companies profiting.

One thing that's obviously changed is that we have Twitter, FB, Mumsnet, bloggers, rolling news media to propel the story. But why are people more worked up by what essentially seems to be the same programme when it's run by a different government? Can someone tell me if protestors were picketing companies back then?

limitedperiodonly · 29/02/2012 16:37

No I didn't. Sorry about that. If I'd have known I'd have protested at the then but I can't go back in time.

However, you're right that lots of people are informed about this scheme now and are angry and want it to end.

Do you object to that?

bobthebuddha · 29/02/2012 16:49

I certainly object to double-standards & hypocrisy. Not particularly keen on witch-hunts & hounding charities either. New Deal ran right through the last decade, after the advent of Mumsnet & social media. I did a search on here for it & found very little in the way of critical comment There was no apparent mass-outrage for an entire decade. Suddenly, it's everywhere.

Polly Toynbee was praising Workfare back in 1997, as per the other article I linked to. I asked earlier what has changed , other than the government. Barely an answer. Is it harsher now than then for instance? Now perhaps we can just put it down to hundreds of thousands of people 'not realising'.

limitedperiodonly · 29/02/2012 17:01

Good for you bob. However, I'm not being hypocritical and I can't speak for anyone else; I was ignorant. What more do you want me to say?

Now I do know about it I want it to stop and in a small way am doing something to try to make that happen.

So, again, what do you object to about that?

claig · 29/02/2012 17:24

'I certainly object to double-standards & hypocrisy.'

I take it, therefore, that you are not a progressive.

This is from the Guardian

'Much of the direct campaigning has been organised by the Right to Work campaign which has links to the Socialist Workers party and is backed by six trade unions and chaired by the leftwing Labour MP for Hayes and Harlington, John McDowell. Founded in 2010, the campaign has bombarded companies on Facebook and Twitter, and last weekend about a dozen campaigners invaded the Tesco Express branch on Westminster Bridge Road, opposite parliament.

But on Saturday an Action against Workfare day of protest will include groups such as Occupy and UK Uncut.'

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/28/workfare-uk-plot-job-snobs

I think the Guardian has possibly got the name of the MP wrong. I think it might be John McDonnell. He was against New Labour's New Deal at the time. This is what he wrote about it

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/17/john-mcdonnell-welfare-reform-labour

Right to Work was founded in 2010 and campaigns ahainst cuts etc. as well as against workfare.

It seems that there is now an organised, concerted campaign against this from left wingers which is given oxygen by left wing media. Twitter existed when Labour was running the New Deal and left wingers were against it then but they never received the oxygen of so much media attention and they don't seem to have been nearly as well organised.

I think the Tories are right that some of the criticism is for political capital, and the media has made the public aware of it, and in a time of high unemployment, the organised campaign has been more effective.

bobthebuddha · 29/02/2012 17:51

What, 'progressives' operate double-standards & hypocrisy? Surely not Grin.

The Guardian would never operate unpaid internship schemes would they, for instance? Progressives want all such schemes to be paid, right?

Incidentally, what month in 2010 was Right to Work founded?

claig · 29/02/2012 18:03

Wikipedia says that the Socialist Workers Party started Right To Work in June 2009, so maybe the Guardian has got it wrong.

'In response to the financial crisis of 2007?2010, the SWP initiated the Right to Work campaign in June 2009.[52]'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Workers_Party_(UK)

limitedperiodonly · 29/02/2012 18:04

So do you oppose or support the work programme bob?

bobthebuddha · 29/02/2012 18:08

limitedperiodonly, I don't object to you believing in something & doing something about it, but I'm not sure what exactly you're objecting to. Are you saying you want any kind of placements to end? That seems to be implied.

And you didn't answer my question as to whether in your view the opinions of people who'd done placements in Greggs head office didn't count because Newsnight hadn't asked people doing placements on the shop floor.

Instead you seemed to be saying that your imagined opinion of the opinions of people whose opinions weren't canvassed (though they did ask an existing shop floor worker) trumped the actual opinions of the people whose opinions were canvassed....which wouldn't make sense, would it Smile

bobthebuddha · 29/02/2012 18:19

I don't oppose work programmes per se, no & I do speak from experience. I graduated in the last recession under a Tory government & funded my own work experience in a publicly-funded art gallery through bar-work & waitressing. They didn't pay me expenses, I didn't claim dole or HB, my parents weren't supporting me, there was no guarantee of a job at the end of it. That this was 'slave labour' just didn't enter my mind. It was work done to improve my CV & chances of a job however far down the line it took.

I definitely agree that such schemes as run by government are open to abuse & exploitation, the kind of thing that was complained about under Labour. But do I think work placement schemes shouldn't exist at all? No. Do you?

bobthebuddha · 29/02/2012 19:04

Claig, I've found reference to Right To Work & its launch in a blog from Nov 2009, saying the campaign was due to launch properly in Jan 2010 & that it was a revival of a campaign from the 80's. It seems it launched to complete indifference from public & press, no mention of its existience that I can find on the Graun or the Independent. For some reason it picked up from about mid 2010 onwards....

claig · 29/02/2012 19:09

Smile yes. Not surprising, just progressive.

bobthebuddha · 29/02/2012 19:23

And looking back at the conference reports etc, there's no mention of any standpoint on New Deal at all, just a general response to the recession.

limitedperiodonly · 29/02/2012 20:04

We?re talking about two things bob - the work experience scheme for young people (sorry, I don?t recall the correct title) and the Work Programme which is aimed at adults.

I?ll start with the Work Programme. My objection to it is quite simple. If there is a job to be done then the going rate should be paid. Anything else distorts the job market and artificially depresses the price of labour.

Currently there is a large and growing number of unemployed adults who don?t need work experience. They already have it. What they need is work. Unfortunately there?s not much of it about and the Government are hiding their plans for growth up their sleeves.

The Work Programme, in which people are compelled to work on pain of losing their benefits, does not appear to be generating a meaningful number of new jobs.

In fact it may be creating unemployment by tempting employers to recruit from the Work Programme at no cost (except to the taxpayer) rather than creating real jobs on a seasonal or longer term basis. These new employees would of course pay income tax if liable.

It does however benefit the government by masking unemployment, removing people from the register for perceived non-compliance and mollifying those still lucky enough to have jobs yet who resent the unemployed with the idea that the ?scroungers? are doing something for their £67 a week.

That?s if the scroungers are still eligible for contributions-based allowance which in all but a few cases runs out after 21 weeks. So these people are working for nothing except their Stamp for no time limit.

No wonder many of them leave the register which is another bonus for the Government.

Large companies, in which I include charities which should be paying staff except for clearly defined volunteers, are benefiting from free labour.

My other objection to charities's revered status is that they are directly responsible for the decline of the High Street and loss of more jobs. Charity shops operate on a peppercorn rent and do not pay for their stock or labour.

Many charities, Oxfam is one, open specialist bookshops or other specialist shops dedicated to unusual clothing or other donated goods.

When shopkeepers struggle to compete against this unfairness I struggle to maintain my warm and cosy feelings towards charities.

Add to that the fact that the Govt has hurled money without proper scrutiny to the so-called ?work provider? A4E which as you must know is currently under scrutiny for fraud. There is the added worry that there are other 'work providers' who may be honest but operate under the same lax regime so it's impossible to be sure .

All in all it?s looking like a very bad deal for the taxpayer.

I have no objection in principle to work experience for those under 21.

I benefitted from such an arrangement which led to my first job. However the placement lasted for a week at Christmas and another at Easter. I received expenses and lunch which any company should be able to pay.

An employer doesn?t need any more time to decide whether the person is suitable or not. Unfortunately many companies abuse it including some in my own industry, journalism. I can?t see what can be done about it and wouldn?t want to legislate to control an arrangement arrived at by free will. But it is immoral to exploit anyone who wants a job and is something I have never allowed when in management.

If the work experience scheme is something to be operated by the Government it needs to be very tightly controlled to ensure quality for both parties and value for money for the taxpayer.

Placements should be short. A month would be pushing it. Companies should be required to set out the training they are offering and prove that they give it.

They should not be compelled to recruit from the scheme but any company continually fishing from the pool without offering a job should be monitored for the quality of its training and expelled if found to be abusing the scheme.

Companies should be allowed to dismiss a work experience trainee but there should be no element of compulsion or working for benefits ? I believe the compulsion element was dropped today after public pressure.

Schemes set up in this way would hae a chance of creating long term employment by matching the needs of employers to the existing or potential skills of those on them.

There should also be proper training schemes run alongside them either as apprenticeships or by accredited organisations - not the likes of A4E.

Unfortunately, though they would be more effective they wouldn?t create the impression of doing something big, which is what the Govt is really after in the face of rising unemployment and no idea what to do about it.

I fully accept now that Labour was operating the scheme under the New Deal. I maintain that just because I didn?t know about it then doesn?t mean I can?t strongly object to it now. Information campaigns are a good thing.

You didn?t ask me a question about Greggs and I didn?t talk about it or the Newsnight episode to which you refer. I think you?re mistaking me for someone else.

bobthebuddha · 29/02/2012 21:12

I am, apologies - that's the downside of trying to work & do MN at the same time I guess Grin

I don't actually disagree with much, if not most, of what you say.

But.... I confess I'm amazed that someone producing such a detailed overview of the scheme & has such a lot of ideas as to how it should operate & who works in journalism (unless it's just Formula 1 racing coverage or something), which should generally entail a decent idea of current affairs going back, say, 2 years or so, says they had little if no awareness of the New Deal?

limitedperiodonly · 29/02/2012 21:55

I work in arts and entertainment. I've always been a Labour voter and union member since my first job and strong advocate of workers' rights and soft Socialist from childhood.

I come from a political family that doesn't belong to any political party but has strong feelings about what we feel is right. That doesn't mean I think anyone else is necessarily wrong.

I also read widely and know quite a lot.

I prefer not to read the Guardian, the Observer and the Independent because they bore me and I find them patronising because of my working class background.

I also despise the SWP, in the most part for attempting to crash a reasonably civil dispute we were having with our employer about 20 years ago.

But I like the pickle Chris Grayling blundered into by fibbing about them hacking his email account. The latest act of a very foolish man in a Cabinet awash with fools.

Luckily for him no one in the media wants to put the SWP's side and openly call the Government to account until someone better than Dave comes along.

Tory HQ are probably scouring the grammar schools and elite comps and independents right now. Scouring the country's finest public schools and smartest Oxford colleges has been an expensive dud for us all.

Anyway, maybe that's probably why I missed it. We're all busy at work. Long may work continue. Thanks for debating Smile

claig · 29/02/2012 22:37

'It is right to see Singer within the traditions of ethical universalism and Utilitarianism, the doctrine founded by Jeremy Bentham which argues on secular, humanist grounds in the interests of the greatest happiness for the greatest number - a calculation which may need off-setting by sacrifices from others.'

www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/feb/15/peter-singer-profile

I think it is immoral because it ignores the weakest in society, those who are in most need. Utilitarianism sees people as numbers not as humans who deserve respect and love.

"greatest happiness for the greatest number" is the rule of the majority and does not defend minorities.

claig · 29/02/2012 22:38

sorry, ignore above post, wrong thread

carernotasaint · 29/02/2012 22:42

Bob of course the placements in head office count. The point is they DIDNT ask any one working on the shop floor because they wernt interested .
You asked why no one seemed to object to New Deal.
Well of course not.
Because back then it was mainly the working classes shoved on to these schemes so no one cared.
Now that graduates (Cait Reilly for instance) are being forced in to doing it as well as older middle class people who have found themselves unemployed there is an outcry.
And the middle class parents who have been indirectly affected because little Freddie cant get a weekend job ( because its being filled by workfare) have realised "oh shit that means ive got to bankroll him a little bit longer."
Working for no wage was alright when us working class scum had to do it.
A complete outrage for a middle class person to have to do it though.

carernotasaint · 29/02/2012 22:45

And come on Bob they knew damn well that if they showed someone sweating in front of an oven cooking pasties for Jobseekers that it would have looked bad.

Swipe left for the next trending thread