'Honour' crimes in the UK

[HedleyLamarr]

This mornings lead news on BBC Breakfast is about so called 'honour' crimes. Apparently there were 2800 identified by police forces who bothered to reply to an FOI request. I'm struggling to understand why this has not been given more publicity until now.

I wish they would stop calling them 'honour'. What honour can the be in murdering your own child?

I think the fact it is "culturally sensitive" is used as a good excuse not to open a can of worms personally. It has to be handled sensitively yes.

I know several Pakastani & Indian families who say that it does go on but in their view it dishonours their communitites as a whole and is an insult to law-abiding members of said community who don't believe that UK law comes second to their religious laws.

I just wish these communities felt they could be more vocal with this view and then maybe the (white) powers that be would realise it is NOT culturally sensitive it is an affront to all law-abiding, family orientated citizens of the UK regardless of race.

That said I understand their reasons for not speaking out if they feel a small number of their community would punish them for their thoughts.

I don't understand, who should be vocal and why? If I happen to be the same colour or religion as someone comiting a crime I should be vocal?

It is not as if t is part of my culture or any Muslim or Punjabi I personally know. It is something I see on the news.

And I agree my version of Islam is different from People who condone honour killings. Like I said, sometimes it is hard to seperate religion and culture espescially by those who.are living it.

I'm sure all the organisations representing asians have told the police that they disagree and will support initiatives against it.

It's not just an Asian thing - "honour" crimes are common in communities across the Middle East and north Africa.

It's not just women/girls who suffer either, although as usual they bear the brunt of it, but many boys/young men get beaten or killed for showing an interest in the wrong girl/woman.

I would love the name to be changed, even with parentheses (is that the right term) it is an insult.

And I agree with nailik, it is the job of all of society to be vocal about this, not just some ill-defined 'community'. Because these are crimes and need to be treated as such, at the end of the day.

Yes WE all agree that everyone should be vocal about it, but "everyone" within the communities affected are not, regardless of race/religion. That's my whole point.

EVERYONE should condemn it but as my friends said the very families who should be reporting and being vocal about it often don't for fear of reprisal, or not being believed by authorities.

Those of us on the outside of these communtities need to support and encourage the victims to come forward & have a voice & if there was less worry about offending PC sensibilities and more about upholding UK law then maybe these criminals would be brought to justice.

Barbarian I agree even the word "honour" is an insult to anyone who is a vicitm of these crimes.

When this guy spoke out about some of these issues 30 years ago he was denounced as a racist and hounded out of his job.

www.city-journal.org/html/12_2_oh_to_be.html

God yes I remember that, Ray Honeyford.

Men that kill their female relatives(And males sometimes) under the guise of 'Honour' have no part to play in our society.
The mothers are often complicit in these killings too which amazes me.

DHs uncle was in the Palestine police during/after WWII. They came across this sort of atrocity - usually a young woman found drowned. Their approach was to keep their ears to the ground and if they heard anything which suggested that a girl might be in danger they'd make it clear that if any harm befell her they'd know who to come after. (they operated with British officer, a Palestinian sergeant and a Jewish sergeant and a mix of men - I think in this case he'd have sent the Palestinian sergeant).

I really don't get 'cultural sensitivity' in this sort of case. People committing 'honour killings' are being about as bloody offensive to European culture as I can imagine - don't they have to be 'sensitive'? Not to mention the small matter of abiding by the law or expecting to pay the consequences.

Dancingmustard me too but I guess they are so much under the patriarchal thumb, they cannot protest, I'm sure they suffer greatly these mothers.

However some I have heard agree with it such is the "shame" they feel. THEY are the ones I cannot understand the ones who agree to it, not the ones who are forced to agree or who have their protests ignored.

Please remember this: In some countries where legislation has changed so that perpetrators of honour crimes are properly punished, what has followed is a rash of young (invariably male) teenagers committing the offence on behalf of their families, as they are below the age of criminal responsibility and/or get lesser sentences.

When the law is changed again, so that ALL pepertrators (not just adults) are subject to a mandatory life sentence for committing these crimes, there follow a rash of 'suicides'.

There are now attempts being made to make 'incitement to suicide' an offence.

see here

and here

What I'm saying is that these people can be so intent on upholding the family's so-called honour that changes of legislation will not always work. They will find a way to put the woman to death in any case.

Sorry for the idiosyncratic English in that last post!
I'm

But in this country help should be accessible, and just like people who are being stalked by ex partners etc should be able to go to the police and be believed and protected, so should women who are at risk of harm from their families.

If these women were to go to any cultural or Islamic /sikh organisation they would get help. But how do we make sure they have access?
This is where the community comes in, the same way that people should have noticed that girl in Manchester was starving to death, they should not be afraid to tell people if they notice a girl is not allowed out or any outside contact, even help from imam etc

wooly understood despite the . I had heard this, it's dreadful & a double crime IMHO, inciting a younger family member to kill his own sister/cousin AND the murder itself.

I think nailak help IS accessible, at least more than it was, but often the women affected don't know it's there due to being non-English speakers, and/or isolated from all but their own community. We need to educate more young women and men from these communitites that this side of their culture is not acceptable here but in a way that doesn't endanger them, so difficult.

But I think it is patronizing to think that the members of the community think it is acceptable. More likely they think that its not going to happen to anyone they know so when they see a girl at risk they ignore it. I mean it is not normal to be a homicidal maniac and it is not something people generally believe others are capable of.

It's stories like these that make me thankful to be part of a culture that supports my right to not be treated like someone's bitch.

Limited thinking like that of the men who carry these killings out is the reason I will never visit the otherwise beautiful countries whose main customs endorse it

I'm equally disgusted that it takes place here in our country. It's definately one of the darker sides to cultural diversity...

I don't think there is a country whose main customs endorse it, it is a minority belief in some countries? Like in Pakistan I wouldn't say the majority of people who fond out their daughter is in a relationship go on to kill them?

It's not just the honour killings I object to. Women in the places where this is more likely to happen are generally subjugated in variou ways from not being allowed to drive right up to the extreme end where, in this case, they're killed for stepping out of line.

FantasticVoyage seeing as their british were would you deport them to

Thanks for the link to Jaswinder Sanghera's interview 3rdOneComingUp, I couldn't remember her name , but remember reading both of her books and feeling horrified that this happens in this country. I used to know a young lady whose parents were Bangladeshi. She told me that if her father found out about her boyfriend he would slit her throat. This was 20 years ago.

To whoever it was that said charge the entire family, I agree. Though the fathers and brothers of girls that have been murdered because of sullying their family's so called 'honour' are idolised in prison, and praised for doing the right thing. Attitudes must be changed. It is disgusting that women are murdered for no reason other than saving face. #frothers (Sorry, couldn't help it )

But I think it is patronizing to think that the members of the community think it is acceptable

Who is being patronising-they DO think it is acceptable, the ones that do it. Anyone who suspects that another family are behaving like this SHOULD report it , yes but many DON'T, or can't for the reasons I said above & that's the stumbling block in many areas.

As for it being the minority belief sadly not in some areas of a lot of countries, however while we can't control what happens in other countries, we can & should try and make it clear that in our country we do NOT treat women like this.

I think the fact it is "culturally sensitive" is used as a good excuse not to open a can of worms personally. It has to be handled sensitively yes.

But why? I can't see why we have to be sensitive and pussy-foot around. What these people are doing is wrong in every sense, there is no justification for it at all, not even 'religion'. How can that be an excuse? There is plenty of stuff in the Bible about an eye for an eye etc but if anybody took it literally the police would be down on them like a ton of bricks for 'taking the law into their own hands'. It's against UK law and that's it, no argument.

When I said sensitively I meant not riding rough shod over the feelings and beliefs of EVERYBODY in that community, which is different to ignoring crime because of "cultural sensitivities" an over used phrase when people don't want to address a thorny issue. I was not saying anything excused murder.

I agree a crime is a crime but in some of these cases as woollyideas has said if you are not careful you actually make it more dangerous for the women involved.

One of the important factors is to distinguish between 'arranged' marriages in which both parties are happy to enter into, and 'forced' marriages.