Such a sad story in the news - baby mistakenly terminated.

[Christmascack]

www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/royal-womens-hospital-investigates-accidental-termination-of-wrong-twin-in-surgery-error/story-e6frg6nf-1226204303788

wannabe I don;t understand

You said this

"well sardine it's simple really isn't it.

There is the side that believes that disability does not equal worthy of life.

And there is the side that believes that to consider those with disabilities as beneath those without from the outset is wrong because disability does not equal not worth living.

Nothing strange about that. "

and gave me a to cap it off.

Where have I said anything to indicate what "side" of things I fall on, if you really have to see this area as something which has "sides"?

Actually I'm going to hide this.

The upset was caused because I have a disability and it could be passed onto children, although it can't be tested for. On a very long and detailed thread where a lot of people shared their very personal views on various issues surrounding disability and birth, there were a couple of posters who said that they would think very hard if they knew that their disability had been passed onto their children.

Unfortunately there was a post after all this heartfelt talk which said that people who weren't prepared to have a baby with a disability shouldn't have children.

I was pregnant at the time and the implication that I should abort and that I was an unfit mother for my 2yo really upset me. The other poster was extremely upset as well.

If there are "sides" here then as someone with a disability from birth who has spent an enormous amount of time in hosptial and with otehr children with disabilities and all the rest of it I know which "side" I am on. It's a side which has a certain amount of understanding and compassion around these terribly terribly difficult issues.

And on that note I think I'm going to leave this. I don't want to be upset for another 3 years by being told god only knows what.

To the women with personal experience of this type of situation I am terribyl sorry for what you have gone through.

Yes, please hide this because it was years ago and this thread is not about that thread.

Maybe I should start another thread?

I have not stopped thinking about it all this time, how someone could think that my baby should be aborted and the other one not had either because I have a disability that I have struggled with.

It has been good in a way to get it off my chest though as it has never stopped playing on my mind.

In a way I suppose I think that people with very strong black and white views do need to understand the real hurt that they cause real people when they espouse them so uncompromisingly on such sensitive issues.

By your response eminencegrise I think that you have sympathy with wannabe's views there?

Good grief, why on Earth start a thread about an upset you felt from a stranger online three years ago? If it's all that personal for you you carry a remark like this around for 3 years you need to step away from the computer, IMO, not start a new thread. FGS, try to let it go, what a waste of energy, still worked up about a thread on MN 3 years ago

Sardine love, with the greatest of respect, if you are still thinking about something some stranger off the internet said 3 years ago, do NOT start a new thread about it - it'll end in tears and probably your own.

Go and have a or some fresh air, hide this thread and avoid threads of a similar ilk.

:)

Because there was never any resolution on the thread where it happened.
Because I suddenly felt that someone on this thread was familiar and it reminded me.
Because I think that people who go around saying stuff like that to people need to understand that it is not very nice.

'By your response eminencegrise I think that you have sympathy with wannabe's views there?'

Wot? Now you want to get personal with me over another thread? Honestly, why do you get so personal and worked up? We were all discussing this case in Australia and you're making it all about you and the slight you felt.

This is a good debate and you're continually trying to hijack and railroad it so it's all about you.

Please stop, it's not condusive to good debate.

I think it was because I was about 5 months pregnant and here was someone telling me point blank that I shouldn't have children.

Valium you are right though I will do that. Nothing on here before or since has affected me like that did and I think people need to know don't they.

sardine sometimes you have to just accept there is no resolution sometimes and that's just the way life is. It is not healthy to care so much about something a faceless person off the net said three years ago - honestly, get yourself a brew and step away from the computer for a bit.

A SLIGHT?

valium I suppose I look at my children and think why would someone say that?

You are right I will take my minor SLIGHT and go and have a cuppa.

I think it was because I was about 5 months pregnant and here was someone telling me point blank that I shouldn't have children

Well you need to look into why you care so much about what others think not what they said x

I wasn't there, SQ, and I honestly don't care because it was three years ago! You are still trying to make this all about you and personal and I'm really not interested in either of these things so carry on, start a thread about a thread and how hard done by you feel by it or about 'nethuns' or whatever.

sq you can bring up whatever thread you like, you are perfectly entitled to still feel upset about such an awful thing being said to you

I do agree with what Valium has said though about not starting a thread as it may cause you more upset

Nethuns?

Wannabe your post are very good, And Jimjams and the other poeters who have said it I agree there should not be a 2 tier system for terminations,
discrimination before birth is disgusting, the rule should be for all "babies" , even if that means allowing terminations up to birth for all babies.

There was a thread on here this morning about something called nethuns.

Charleymouse > You are right. No-one knows what the circumstances are but these parents and their medical team but as a Mum who lost a dd through natural causes, I know I still find reasons to blame myself. These parents probably feel that the decision they made lost them their two sons even though it was the hospital who messed up.

Sardine, any of your threads I've seen show you to be a lovely mother with every right to have dcs.

Charley - so very sad, and I'm sorry you lost your DT1 - but thank you for posting that very enlightening account of the dilemmas you faced.

I do know someone who was offered - in a round about but unmistakable way - a termination for talipes at about 30 weeks. As the parent of a child with a significantly more serious mobility disability than that I can confirm that a parent with a wanted pg would be out of their mind, or very very seriously misinformed, to consider terminating on the basis of talipes!

HarryHill - Bearing in mind what I have just said. My position is based on the the belief that no-one terminates a longed for / wanted baby in a whim. People who terminate after discovering ill health or disability do so with incredible anguish - I have seen it here, on MN. As far as I know (because someone usually comes up with the stats on threads like this) the numbers of people who terminate pg at a late stage is very very small, and we must assume that thier circumstances feel extreme, that they may be facing a dilemma such as has been described on this thread, or a non-viable or non curable condition has been found. Who would get to 30 weeks, battle through morning sickness and the first trimester tiredness and then go 'oops, I'd rather go on a ski-ing holiday in a couple of months instead, I think I'll terminate'? No-one.

To me, I agree with your statement "if you don't want to be a mother you do the moral and responsible thing and take car of it as early as possible." - but what if you didn't know, what if there is some other extreme circumstance? The idea that a woman should perhaps have a baby, become a mother against her will, of a baby she doesn't want is horrendous. It is saying 'you got pg, you live with the conesequences- lump it' - which makes bearing a child a punishment - a horrible thought, for the woman and the child.

Making the choice to terminate available to any woman removes the inequality that WannaBe refers to - that it's permissable to terminate where there is disability but not where there is not. That system, the current system, does rest on a presumption that the life of one feotus is superior to another - and in terms of disability, I find that unnacceptable. Under my suggestion, the law about termination is not focussed on the relative value of the feotus, but the fact that the body is the woman's.

Apologies for pulling it off track I read some posts and it took me right back to how I felt back then.

Thanks for the understanding though (not sarcastic)

I will stop going on about it now.

you know what, sq has clearly turned this thread into her personal vendetta against me, and while I have expressly avoided discussion on an issue which came up years ago I do feel I should have the right to defend myself.

At no point have I ever told a poster that she should have a termination. Ever. In fact as those who know me on here could testify, I have strong opinions on termination for disability and have expressed those opinions on numerous threads in the past.

I have possibly also expressed the view that if someone is categorically not willing to have a child with disabilities then perhaps they shouldn't have children, as per my previous post that "any one of us is only a botched birth or a car crash away from having a disabled child," as there are simply no guarantees that any child you have will be born or will stay healthy.

That does not equate to telling sq that she should have terminated her pregnancy, and any inference that she made from my views was her's and not mine.

This thread was not about whether parents should have the right to terminate on the grounds of disability or whether parents who are not prepared to have a disabled child should have children in the first place.

My views expressed regarding termination were based on the gestation of this particular pregnancy and the law regarding the late termination of disabled babies. At no point did I express judgement of these particular parents - merely of the system that allows such late terminations.

SQ I am not going to engage with you any further on this or any other thread regarding this matter, because quite frankly the opinion that I said you should terminate your pregnancy is one which you have come to of your own acord. And the fact you have carried this vendetta around for the past three years is your issue and not mine.

Apologies for highjack.

I also agree that it is not right that there is a difference in gestation at which a termination can be carried out.

I also think that late term abortions are rare but are needed eg if a woman finds out after the cut off that her baby has a condition incompatible with life I don't think she should have to carry it for another however many weeks and give birth at that later stage.

So on balance I think that as outrageous as Blu's idea sounds initially I would have to say that would be the correct way forward.