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Original poster

Why is Remembrance Day religious?

35 replies

nomiddlename · 14/11/2011 22:44

Okay, so following a very religious remembrance service this year held after the parade in a nearby town, I'm wondering why religion is still linked to remembering the service men and women who fought/fight in wars.

As a child, I marched with the brownies and girl guides and then sat throught the very long church service but never questionned then (as a child generally wouldn't) why remembrance has to be linked to religion.

Then, today, having googled the subject, I came across this. In the church yesterday, I'd say a good 95% or more of the 40 minute long service was about God and religion and one of the ministers actually said we had to sit and think about our own sins and how we could help bring peace etc.

Now, as an atheist, I sat in a supportive role next to my currently serving DH but tolerant though I am, I was quite taken aback at how little the service was actually about remembering our service men and women.

Why do we have to pray to remember?

Surely the day should be neutral; a day for contemplation and thought about those peope who gave and are still giving their lives?

OP posts:
CogitoErgoSometimes · 15/11/2011 07:11

Because the Act of Remembrance, as enacted at cenotaphs up and down the country, is a religious service in the same way as any other memorial service. Hmm Solidiers on the battlefield for centuries have prayed to god for victory, thanked god for deliverance and asked god to remember the fallen. They're closer to death than most of us and there are few atheists in a life-threatening situation. Doesn't mean others can't participate in the ceremony. Doesn't mean others can't opt out of the ceremony and remember the fallen in their own way.

As for it not being about remembering servicemen and women.... the highlight of every service is the sounding of the Last Post and reading the words that start 'They shall not grow old as we that are left grow old... ' etc. YABU

msrisotto · 15/11/2011 07:15

" there are few atheists in a life-threatening situation."

I find this offensive, and where did you hear that? It sounds like you made it up.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 15/11/2011 07:17

Offensive. Wtf? you've never hear the expression 'there are no atheists in foxholes'? It's a fairly well-used aphorism

EdithWeston · 15/11/2011 07:17

I think it us referring to the well known and documented phenomena of increased attendance at Church parades by soldiers on the eve of battle. There are vanishingly few who do not pray to one God or another at that time.

EdithWeston · 15/11/2011 07:26

There are increased numbers attending the Remembrance Sunday ones across the nation, so I doubt there would be much enthusiasm for change to content or form.

But there is nothing to stop those who want a different form of Remembrance from setting it up. In addition to the RBL ceremony at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday, there are other ceremonies there at other times and (I assume) of other tone/rite/content. Perhaps you could attend one of these, or instigate a similar additional one in a place of your choosing?

weevilswobble · 15/11/2011 07:59

Religion is about life! And all the ins and outs of life. Its not some weird club where people go to do something unconnected to real life.
Religion is just a helping hand in trying to live your life as best you can, to help you fulfil your true and full potential and guide you through all of lifes troubles.
Rememberance day reminds us of how some have given their lives in the name of others.

scaryteacher · 15/11/2011 08:05

'" there are few atheists in a life-threatening situation."

I find this offensive, and where did you hear that? It sounds like you made it up.'

My dh, who only sets foot in a church at Remembrance/weddings/funerals and taking my Mum to midnight mass when she comes to stay at Christmas, always went to 'church' when at sea on a submarine.

Original poster
nomiddlename · 15/11/2011 08:10

scary my dh too never goes to church (excepts weddings/christneings etc and he did say that had the service been on a military camp, as they sometimes are, it would have had much less religious input and more focus on the soldiers and remembering what they did/do, rather than what God helped them do etc.

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worldgonecrazy · 15/11/2011 08:19

I think the religious aspect comes in due to CofE being the 'official' religion of the United Kingdom, the Queen being Head of the Church and all that, and the army chaplains are CofE.

I do find some parts of the remembrance services difficult, though I have never been to one where we've had to think about sins. I suspect the chaplain put that bit in himself.

I'm Pagan, but will happily sit through a Christian ceremony. Of course there are some bits that rankle me - the concept of sin and divine forgiveness for a start! - but I just let those bits wash over me.

Spirituality/religion is a very personal thing anyway, and each person there will have a slightly different view of what the chaplain is saying anyway.

I also think the saying 'there are no atheists in foxholes' is a stupid one, said by ignorant people who haven't taken the time to discuss and learn about other people's beliefs and/or spirituality.

MissM · 15/11/2011 10:43

I find 'there are few atheists in a life-threatening situation' pretty Shock as well. How about all the people who face the prospect of dying from cancer? You think they all spend their time praying to god? Bullshit.

Worldgonecrazy gives the most reasonable answer. I'm an atheist as well, but I think that Remembrance Sunday is one of the most important days in our calendar and teach my children the same. I don't see why it should be associated with christianity either - there were and are many Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Sikhs and people of other faiths who have died serving this country.

Original poster
nomiddlename · 15/11/2011 10:52

MissM - I feel the same as you.

OP posts:
Original poster
nomiddlename · 15/11/2011 10:52

Osrry I posted this twice - wasn't sure where to post it really.

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EdithWeston · 15/11/2011 11:26

" army chaplains are CofE"

The Navy and RAF have padres too, and they are not all CofE. Indeed they are not all Christian - they have rabbis, imams and pandits too.

Gasbluewithlavenderbeads · 15/11/2011 11:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

worldgonecrazy · 15/11/2011 11:35

Gasbluewithlavenderbeads that is unbelievable! I am shocked and horrified that a vicar, in a position of respect, would say something like that. I'd be in touch with his Bishop and saying exactly what I thought if a vicar ever said that in front of me.

MissM · 15/11/2011 11:42

Gasblue what an appalling thing to say, and how horrible to use a remembrance day service to put across his own prejudices. I felt very moved reading of your grandfather's experiences. I think this is precisely what gets forgotten - war isn't pretty or noble. It's absolutely right that remembrance is the key, not glorification.

sospanfach · 15/11/2011 11:46

Gasblue, I'd be tempted to write to his Bishop, to be honest. What a disgraceful man.

sospanfach · 15/11/2011 11:48

sorry, I see worldgonecrazy says the same. Seriously, report him for that.

rasputin · 15/11/2011 11:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HugosGoatee · 15/11/2011 11:59

Religion is a way of soothing the souls of people who are terrified of life and all its unpredictability and horror.

When people are devastated and there is no way of making sense of the horror of war and the often pointlessness of death caused by war, it can be soothing to think of a higher purpose.

Especially if you disagree with the government who send the soldiers out to fight and die in wars which are nothing to do with defending our nation. You can't look to the government for answers so you look to religion. Where nothing makes any sense so you can relax and not need to try

Dillydaydreaming · 15/11/2011 11:59

I am Catholic and neither of the Priests covering our Parish would EVER say anything so offensive. On the contrary Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love one another and he didn't say "only love other Christians" just "love one another".

As far as the OP goes it was always a religious service but yes - i see what you are saying about "why is it religious". Dunno is my answer - just is and always has been.

Original poster
nomiddlename · 15/11/2011 12:07

I guess, I mean that I find it hard to see why, in today's supposedly modern thinking society, death should = religion.

But as dilly says "just is and always has been"

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scaryteacher · 15/11/2011 12:15

I went to the Remembrance service for the Service community in Brussels, which prayed for peace, those who have died in war and those left behind, both civilian and military, the last post, the standards of the Veterans associations here, the kids uniformed organisations with their standards and poppies, and a talk from a lady whose Dad was a scout in Poland in the second world war, and she talked about what the scouts did as part of the resistance movement.

There were the normal OT and NT readings and hymns and the UK and Belgian anthems.

It has always been thus. I can remember attending exactly the same services at BRNC when I was a kid, and then at church when I was in the choir. I didn't feel any glorification, just a lot of people reflecting that they had come home safe, thinking about colleagues, friends and family they'd lost and being thankful for being there.

MissM · 15/11/2011 12:19

'I didn't feel any glorification, just a lot of people reflecting that they had come home safe, thinking about colleagues, friends and family they'd lost and being thankful for being there.'

But as nomiddlename says, why can't we feel this without having the religious element?

EdithWeston · 15/11/2011 12:21

MissM: you can. Go to one of the other commemorations through the year, or inaugurate your own.