NICE recommend all women should be able to have a cs

[LoveBeingAWitch]

Just seen tomorrow's front page of the Sunday times saying that NICE are saying cd has become such a safe op that every woman should be able to have one if that's what they want. Im quite surprised by this.

Do you think that this right will be extended to poor Mothers in the situation of having to deliver a stillborn baby?

I have to say I am not in favour - I do think that cs should be saved for medical/psych reasons - the recovery is longer and requires more monitoring.

WhollyGhost - I've seen studies where they've used elective CS for breech position as a proxy for maternal request CS, for comparison with vaginal birth. Obviously it isn't exactly the same situation, but probably about the best approximation we have, as there isn't anything actually 'wrong' with the baby or the mother. Not sure if that's what the NICE report is referring to though.

No, shagmundfreud, you're quite right - no need for contempt or nastiness.

That's what I thought when I read your post about women who've had ELCS's posting honestly about their experiences here. You misrepresented them as:" 'I had a glorious c/s - I scarcely knew I'd given birth' comments."What a nasty little parody of some of the heartfelt and honest comments that have been made here. No one has said that they 'scarcely knew they had given birth', or that that was a desirable thing.

Pinky I hope not and don't think it will TBH, the risks of infection are higher if nothing else.

Would we not all hope though that a mother delivering a baby who will be born "sleeping or stillborn" would especially have the opportunity to make an informed choice of VB or CS according to her wishes ?

Reading between lines on what the RCOG says, I can see wording changing slightly and it being more clearly about tocophobia and anxiety than free choice in the final version... we shall have to see.

I think it always was supposed to be more about tokophobia/anxiety than anything else really, after all they mention (in the draft guidelines) psychological harm as the justification for granting the request.

Juggling I can absolutely appreciate that sentiment and I don't want to offend anyone or upset anyone with what I'm about to say. Sometimes babies have been dead a little while before its picked up, sometimes they are heavily infected, the risks of labour are now virtually wiped out for the baby. Research says that although the immediate reaction may well be along the lines of wanting the baby to be out as soon as possible, via operative delivery if possible but in the main vaginal delivery can be very healing mentally in the long term. I don't profess to know what is best for any woman in that situation but the risks to herself become significantly higher in that situation. Not many consultants would ever agree to it unless in an emergency situation.

Ephiny, I completely agree, but its not explicit enough in that. I know the background to why they have down this, so perhaps thats why I have always interpretated it as that especially since I spent time actually reading it.

Ah, I hadn't considered all those factors MrsJRT
I can see they may weight the decision in favour of VB in this very sad situation.
However I still feel the principle of informed choice is an important one to uphold for all women whatever the situation.
Personally I think the role of consultants should be more to "advise" or "strongly advise" a course of action rather than to make the decision for us !

MrsJRT,
I'm sorry to say that, but this last comment of yours....I'm speechless. How CAN anyone think that going through hours of pain with the risk of more pain and injury afterwards to deliver a dead baby could be a good thing at all? What a heartless thing to say. No surprise, you're a midwife. They tend to be quite cold and heartless after all. Now, you can report me, if you like.

Quietly,
I fully support you and admire your patience with discussing your point. I hope the change in NICE guidelines will really help women like you.

That's a bit harsh RalucaV. As I read it, MrsJRT was just relaying what the current thinking is about delivering already deceased babies. She hardly included anything about her personal feelings so calling her heartless is a bit much.

Hi all. I am new to Mumsnet, and will be having my first baby next spring. Me and Daddy to be feel very lucky to be expecting given my age. I have read the ECS v NVB debate thread with interest in response to the latest NICE guidelines. However I would like to hear from older mums re. their birthing experiences, and whether in hindsight they would have made different choices. I am currently on the fence on this issue. This will probably be our only child.

RalucaV MrsJRT,
I'm sorry to say that, but this last comment of yours....I'm speechless. How CAN anyone think that going through hours of pain with the risk of more pain and injury afterwards to deliver a dead baby could be a good thing at all? What a heartless thing to say. No surprise, you're a midwife. They tend to be quite cold and heartless after all. Now, you can report me, if you like.

Oh give over. That is not what I said. I'm not going to go into why vaginal birth is recommended in these circumstances, nor why many women find this helpful and therapeutic. Note I said many, not all. This really isn't the time or the place. I'm far from cold and heartless and I specifically said at the beginning of the post that I did not seek to offend. If you have an axe to grind against midwives go and do it elsewhere please.

Clara,
I admit that I might have got carried away too much, but this all anti-choice stance of midwives gets seriously on my nerves. And forcing a woman who is already facing a huge tragedy to live through labour even against her will because some freaking misogynist midwife or consultant think that they know better what is good for her....that's just vile and barbaric and evil. How can anyone even face their own conscience when they are saying something like that to an already heart-broken woman?

MrsJRT,
yes, you are right. I really strongly dislike midwives, although I always try to give them a chance to persuade me otherwise, which they never somehow manage.

Can you explain, how exactly is it good for the woman to give vaginal birth to a dead baby? What is healing about it? To me it's just cruel and makes the situation even worse for the poor woman.

springmummy, I would start a new thread in 'Childbirth' if I was you. This thread will run out of room very soon, and you may get some less heated and more focused responses there.

It is an emotive subject. My sister in law had to be induced to deliver a stillborn son and was so traumatised by it that she demanded (and was granted) c-sections for her three subsequent deliveries.

Oh FFS. I think you'll find throughout the thread I have been pro choice, I've even modified my views based on several persuasive arguments here, I am nothing if not open to being educated. Can't you understand that the risks posed to the mother become much higher when her baby has died inside her? I really don't want to start explaining this as I know how emotive it is and I am well aware that I run the risk of upsetting people which is the last thing I want to do.

Clara,
that's exactly my point. I'm very empathic and when I imagine myself in that position, I think I would go to jail for murder if someone tried to tell me that I have to give birth to my already dead baby and deny me a CS.

I was always more scared of CS than VB, and actually thought I'd want general anaesthesia not just epidural or whatever if I had to have one. Do women get to make a choice on this ? TBH I could probably be reassured into having a CS whilst still around to see the proceedings ( I know there's a screen )

• but I'd definitely want someone there to hold my hand !

MrsJRT,
there's nothing more important than the choice of the mother. NOTHING. If the mother chooses more danger to herself in that situation, be it. I'd definitely do the same. And bully and try to coerce someone into doing something against their will under these circumstances......words fail me.

RalucaV, some women feel it is a final act of 'doing' for their baby, it brings an end to the pregnancy in a conclusive way, a way they are part of. I do NOT want to speak for all women as I'm sure some do not feel like that. Google it. It's not something I as an uncaring, cold, heartless mysoginistic midwife has just made up to inflict further pain on grieving parents.

Ridiculous. I wanted a CS but so glad I had a natural birth in the end as so much easier to recover.

MrsJRT,
but you actually hinted that women are in fact denied the choice by the consultants. That's totally different than when they decide to do it by of their own accord.