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NICE recommend all women should be able to have a cs

999 replies

LoveBeingAWitch · 29/10/2011 22:59

Just seen tomorrow's front page of the Sunday times saying that NICE are saying cd has become such a safe op that every woman should be able to have one if that's what they want. Im quite surprised by this.

OP posts:
iggly2 · 01/11/2011 11:32

Counselling is needed. Very quick search Pubmed "C section counselling" these are most relevant -yes they are Scandinavian countries-but maybe this is as countries go they are better at offering this).Think about what a lot of these women have gone through and in some cases it works (look at percentages opting for VB). Csection as stated before has been linked with reduced number of children (for psychological reasons-not infertility) look into the cause this is a psychological problem and I do think for some women they may not best be looked after by csection on demand.

Indicates possible reasons:
Tidsskr Nor Laegeforen. 2008 Jun 12;128(12):1388-91.
[Is there an association between psychological stress and request for caesarian section?].
[Article in Norwegian]
Halvorsen L, Nerum H, Øian P, Sørlie T.
Source
Kvinneklinikken Universitetssykehuset Nord-Norge Postboks 100 9038 Tromsø. [email protected]
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Caesarean section rates have increased in Norway, as in the rest of the western world since the beginning of the 1970s, and further explanations are needed to understand this development. The study aimed to examine whether demographic or psychological burdens differed among women who feared childbirth, according to whether or not they requested caesarean section.
MATERIAL AND METHODS:
In the period 2000-02, 164 pregnant women who feared childbirth were referred for counselling with two midwives (specialized in mental health) at the antenatal clinic at the University Hospital of North Norway. Data were retrieved from counselling sessions, referral letters, antenatal and intrapartum care records. The group that wished to have caesarean sections (n = 86) was compared with the one that did not (n = 78).
RESULTS:
80% of the women had previously experienced anxiety and/or depression, 32% had eating disturbances and 72% reported having been abused. In the group requesting caesarean section the women had more severe fear of childbirth, previous traumatic birth experiences, previous anxiety and depression, lack of confidence in the professional staff and fewer had been treated for their psychological problems. At the onset of labour, 86% who initially requested a caesarean delivery were prepared for a vaginal birth. The overall caesarean rate for both groups was 32%.
INTERPRETATION:
The women who feared childbirth generally had a larger burden of psychosocial and psychiatric problems than others, and those who requested a caesarean delivery had most. Charting and processing these burdens is presumably of significance for the birth outcome.
elective c section counselling

Birth. 2006 Sep;33(3):221-8.
Maternal request for cesarean section due to fear of birth: can it be changed through crisis-oriented counseling?
Nerum H, Halvorsen L, Sørlie T, Oian P.
Source
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Hospital of North Norway, Tromsø, Norway.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
A psychosocial team was established to meet the needs of an increasing number of pregnant women referred for fear of birth who wished a planned cesarean. This study describes the intervention, the women's psychosocial problems in relation to degree of fear of birth, changes in their wishes for mode of birth and birth outcome, women's satisfaction with the intervention, and their wishes for future births.
METHODS:
The study sample comprised 86 pregnant women with fear of birth and a request for planned cesarean, who were referred for counseling by a psychosocial team at the University Hospital of North Norway in the period 2000-2002. Data were gathered from referral letters, from antenatal and intrapartum care records, and from a follow-up survey conducted 2 to 4 years after the birth in question.
RESULTS:
Fear of birth was accompanied by extensive psychosocial problems in most women. Ninety percent had experienced anxiety or depression, 43 percent had eating disturbances, and 63 percent had been subjected to abuse. Twenty-four percent of those with psychiatric conditions had previously been in treatment. After the intervention, 86 percent changed their original request for cesarean section and were prepared to give birth vaginally. The follow-up survey confirmed long-term satisfaction with having changed their request for a cesarean delivery. Of these, 69 percent gave birth vaginally and 31 percent were delivered by cesarean for obstetrical indications.
CONCLUSIONS:
Impending birth activates previous traumatic experiences, abuse, and psychiatric disorders that may give rise to fear of vaginal birth. When women were referred to a specialist service for fear of birth and request for cesarean, they became conscious of, and to some degree worked through, the causes of their fear, and most preferred vaginal birth. They remained pleased with their choice later.
PMID:
16948722
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

BJOG. 2006 Jun;113(6):638-46.
Antenatal fear of childbirth and its association with subsequent caesarean section and experience of childbirth.
Waldenström U, Hildingsson I, Ryding EL.
Source
Department of Woman and Child Health, Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm, Sweden. [email protected]
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To investigate the prevalence of fear of childbirth in a nationwide sample and its association with subsequent rates of caesarean section and overall experience of childbirth.
DESIGN:
A prospective study using between-group comparisons.
SETTING:
About 600 antenatal clinics in Sweden.
SAMPLE:
A total of 2,662 women recruited at their first visit to an antenatal clinic during three predetermined weeks spread over 1 year.
METHODS:
Postal questionnaires at 16 weeks of gestation (mean) and 2 months postpartum. Women with fear of childbirth, defined as 'very negative' feelings when thinking about the delivery in second trimester and/or having undergone counselling because of fear of childbirth later in pregnancy, were compared with those in the reference group without these characteristics.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Elective and emergency caesarean section and overall childbirth experience.
RESULTS:
In total 97 women (3.6%) had very negative feelings and about half of them subsequently underwent counselling. In addition, 193 women (7.2%) who initially had more positive feelings underwent counselling later in pregnancy. In women who underwent counselling, fear of childbirth was associated with a three to six times higher rate of elective caesarean sections but not with higher rates of emergency caesarean section or negative childbirth experience. Very negative feelings without counselling were not associated with an increased caesarean section rate but were associated with a negative birth experience.
CONCLUSIONS:
At least 10% of pregnant women in Sweden suffer from fear of childbirth. Fear of childbirth in combination with counselling may increase the rate of elective caesarean sections, whereas fear without treatment may have a negative impact on the subsequent experience of childbirth.
Acta Obstet Gynecol Scand. 1993 May;72(4):280-5.
Investigation of 33 women who demanded a cesarean section for personal reasons.
Ryding EL.
Source
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Central Hospital, Helsingborg, Sweden.
Abstract
The purpose of this study was to obtain a better understanding of women who demand a cesarean section when obstetricians do not think it is necessary. Thirty-three pregnant women were interviewed about their reasons for the demand. The 28 parous women referred to previous childbirth experiences and feared mainly for intractable labor pain and for the life and health of the child. The most prevalent fear of the five nulliparae was for vaginal rupture. According to their wishes and prerequisites the women received counselling or short-term psychotherapy by a psychotherapeutically trained obstetrician. At term 14 women chose vaginal delivery and 19 had elective cesareans, three on obstetric indications and 16 at their own choice.
PMID:
8389515
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

MrsHeffley · 01/11/2011 11:44

Counselling is needed to illustrate the risks of a vb too. I have two friends undergoing reconstructive surgery(1 is on her 4th op) after vbs.Both are bitter.How many more women are going through this?Due to the complaints involved many don't talk about it.

Re c/s obese women are more likely to need a c/s and more likely to have complications which they would have wether they had a vb or a c/s.One wonders if this has an impact on the slight increase risk of a c/s to the mother.Also let's not forgot the success rate of c/ss are very good.

MrsHeffley · 01/11/2011 11:49

Personally I'd take the slight increase risk of a c/s any day to avoid going through what my friend has now got to endure for the rest of her life.

My mother who as I said earlier nearly lost her life and me during labour and who didn't get to see me for 2 days(something she still talks about with regret)wishes c/ss had been more readily available and as safe as they are today back in the 60s/70s.

Ephiny · 01/11/2011 11:50

But the recommendation is precisely to offer counselling and support first, and full discussion of the reasons behind the request. The recommendation is to offer CS as an option if the woman still doesn't feel able to attempt VB, due to the risk of psychological harm of forcing her to do so.

It's not a case of CS on demand for everyone, no questions asked.

StarlightMcKenzie · 01/11/2011 11:59

I wasn't offered counselling when I demanded a c/s after my traumatic first birth. Everyone simply refused to discuss it with me. On my due date they told me they had to book my induction for 12 days time. Only then did I have any say/control as I refused induction in favour of a c/s and that caught their attention.

Montsti · 01/11/2011 12:11

Interesting article. Referring back to a previous post you cannot compare the NHS to medical services in many other countries as there are so many different factors to bear in mind. Millions of people in the world would love to have access to a service such as the NHS and in fact millions of lives would be saved (however that's not going to happen). Many countries such as the country I live in have a medical insurance run healthcare. Those who cannot afford this are provided with unbelievably substandard treatment. Those who can afford, pay a lot of money for their healthcare. Interestingly as far as childbirth is concerned we (those who can afford to have medical aid) have the complete opposite problem with obstetricians pushing most women to have c-sections. People turn their noses up at you if you decide to go down the VB route...

I am, in no way advocating the improper care/negligence that is clearly rife in the NHS (some of your stories are horrendous) - this is frankly unacceptable and MUST change, however the system is on it's knees. The population has increased dramatically over the years and it can't cope. I was astounded by the posts to the midwife who wrote on this thread yesterday as all she was doing was expressing her very real opinion that the system couldn't cope with more elective C-sections. She didn't say that the NHS or midwives in general were perfect just that the situation could well get worse if this was implemented. I thought this thread was asking for people's opinions not a place to attack people if they disagree with yours.

I sincerely hope that those people who are mentally/physically scarred by whichever birth they had first are given the opportunity to voice their opinions and get the experience they want next time round (a number of people I know in the UK have been lucky enough to have been offered this option after a traumatic first birth but maybe this depends where you live - famous NHS postcode lottery).

I know a lot of people have said that they don't believe the majority would choose a surgical procedure over VB if offered but I wouldn't be so sure (the overwhelming majority of people in my position where I live choose a C-section or are pushed into it by medical staff who put the fear of god into you). Many people are scared having heard others' horror stories or just find VB gross (not my opinion) and I know a lot of men that would much rather their wives/partners had a c-section than VB and put pressure on them. I would be interested to see the results in a few years if this were implemented.

Good luck to all of you with any subsequent childbirths and I really hope the terrible treatment that some of you have received at the hands of the NHS does not happen again.

whatacrapstressfulday · 01/11/2011 12:15

reallytired - Female obstetricians often have quite a distorted view of childbirth as do male obstetricians and anethestists. Many of them have never witnessed a nice natural birth.

I'm afraid that's rubbish, it's a view I hear trotted out fairly regularly with regard to why doctors don't have a clue, and it's simply untrue! Obstetricians have to attend scores of natural births in order to qualify - not just attend, but deliver babies at them!

quietlyafraid · 01/11/2011 12:50

Iggly2 I do find it amusing that you didn't even read one of those articles on fear. One reports that screening for fear and then counselling all patients who score high for fear INCREASES requests for electives. Why? Because it empowers women who would otherwise not feel able to ask for an elective under other circumstances. It also states that fear without treatment has a lasting effect on subsequent births. Very interesting stuff huh?

quietlyafraid · 01/11/2011 12:57

"Why is this not a problem to Germans and Swedes?"

Because they don't face the same hard choices about healthcare provision as they do as their systems are largely insurance based.

Actually the swedish system is almost all funded by the government.

And in an insurance based system I would be fairly sure that insurance companies would have something to say about costs... a pay on demand system would be different.

Do Germans have to pay extra for a c-section on demand? Or is it just covered as standard in their coverage?

Anyone care to mention the dreaded thing of litigation when a women requests a c-section and is denied one? I believe this is the case in one of the tragic incidents in cumbria.

StarlightMcKenzie · 01/11/2011 12:57

'not just attend, but deliver babies at them'

In that case they didn't attend a normal natural birth. Parcels are delivered. Babies are born. If the obs has had anything to do with it then they have not witnessed a natural normal birth.

juuule · 01/11/2011 13:08

Other things than parcels can be delivered. And while it is correct to say that the ob didn't do the delivering, the mother did and the ob will have assisted her.
I assumed from the prev. poster that the obs were witnessing or assisting in normal births as a part of their training as a reference point for knowing when things are not in the normal range.

StarlightMcKenzie · 01/11/2011 13:22

But, if the birth experience is optimal, then few women need 'assistance' to birth their babies, any more than they need 'assistance' to poo.

Can you imagine sitting on the loo pooing on demand to a man/woman staring at your nether regions and shouting at you, sticking their hands between your legs to 'pull it out'?

Nor should they have that level of interference in the birthing mother, unless of course there is a medical problems that is invidual to the mother and not based on hospital protocol or the clock.

mapleleafmay · 01/11/2011 13:25

whatacrapstressfulday- I'm afraid that it's nonsense to suggest that O&Gs don't have a skewed view of birth. Of course they have to attend some SVDs as part of their training but the great majority of births they see/ attend/ deliver are those requiring assistance, from Ventouse to forceps to CS. They are used to seeing interventions/ drugs/ surgery as part of delivery and start to consider it normal/ essential for a safe delivery.

screamingbohemian · 01/11/2011 13:29

Delivered, born, gawd, who cares? Confused

Whilst we're talking about other countries and their attitudes I think this whole debate over ELCS is an outgrowth of the UK obsession with 'free' over 'good' healthcare provision. I now live in France, which by many standards has the best healthcare system in Europe. They spend a phenomenal amount on healthcare. It is not free at POS, but neither is it onerous we pay a few euro for a doctor's visit.

I think quite a few people would prefer a system where you have to pay small amounts if it meant you had a higher standard of healthcare. But this is, of course, anathema in the UK.

I do think 'free' and universal healthcare is something to be very proud of, but the downside of this is that changes to the system that involve cost differentials can then become moral questions, and give people a chance to stake the higher ground of we can't afford it as an excuse to deny people greater choice.

I think the French and Germans have a healthier attitude toward sections because the multiple funding streams mean that no one can come along and say that's my tax money paying for your unnecessary section. It's just not really a moral or societal question in the same way.

screamingbohemian · 01/11/2011 13:30

And FFS can we please stop comparing childbirth to having a poo? Thank you.

juuule · 01/11/2011 13:37

Giving birth isn't the same as having a poo. Going to the toilet happens frequently throughout a persons life. They get used to it. They know when it's okay and when it's not. They become experienced at it and know when to go for help. It's not generally an unusual and potentially scary event.

Birth is not always straightforward. Generally, most women don't have as much experience of births as the have of going to the toilet. Afaik women, past and present, who are about to give birth have preferred to have someone there with experience of what to do if everything isn't going ahead as it should. And to reassure them if they become afraid. HCP maybe should be more hands off than they are in some cases but I can't see a problem with having someone there who can assist if a problem arises.

Even farm and zoo animals have someone in attendance to assist if they are having problems.

And if I did have problems pooing then I would go and seek help, probably from the GP who might or might not be male.

StarlightMcKenzie · 01/11/2011 13:37

It matters very much what you call it. The semantics play a huge part in women's perception of their own bodies and the control or lack of over their birth experience.

If a woman talks about birthing her baby, it implies she has something to do with it and some control over it.

Going somewhere to have your baby 'delivered' sets a whole different scene and for many a frightening one where things are 'done to you'. It doesn't surprise me at all that with such anti-women's-bodies terminology, that women feel the only way of gaining some control is to opt for a c-section.

I am reading Emma's diary at the moment. It states that some women (Around 30%) HAVE to be induced due to going overdue. Where on earth has this word 'have' come from. They most certainly don't HAVE to.

There is a section on choices for the birth plan that includes inane things like 'who would you like to cut the cord?' whilst ignoring completely fundamentals such as 'Do you consent to internal examinations?'. Most women think that a)they have to accept them and b)they are for their benefit. Very rarely are they for the woman's benefit, but for the labour ward planning schedule.

And what about 'failure to progress' as a term, which actually means 'failure to dilate fast enough for our arbitrary timeframe that fits our budget and targets for throughput of birthing women. The woman's body is most certainly NOT failing at anything, but ripening in her own time at a pace that optimally meets her and her baby's needs.

StarlightMcKenzie · 01/11/2011 13:40

'Even farm and zoo animals have someone in attendance to assist if they are having problems.'

Yes, but those 'someones' are usually hiding and attempting to disturb the natural process of birth as much as they possibly can.

StarlightMcKenzie · 01/11/2011 13:40

not disturb

MrsJRT · 01/11/2011 13:48

I have never had a doctor, training or otherwise at a normal birth in any of the hospitals in which I have worked. I have had med students, as detailed upthread who come along to delivery suite for a day or two who hang around the desk waiting for the money shot. Very rarely do they get actively involved in the care of a labouring woman. By the time they reach obstetrics on their rotation (as second years, we don't get them first year post med school) they are either A) willing the rotation to be over as quickly as possible because they are GP trainees and have no interest in obstetrics or B) Specialist trainees who have so much to learn during their time on the ward/delivery suite, stuff that as doctors they actually need to know, how to interpret a CTG, perform assisted deliveries, assist at sections, assist with care plans for high risk mothers etc etc, not to mention the daily grind of ward rounds, medications etc etc they just don't realistically have the time or inclination to get involved in a birth where there is no clinical need for them.

I say that with the caveat that I am not a doctor, I have not been through med school and therefore can not say with any degree of personal experience that this is normal. I can only talk from my experience of being a midwife on delivery suite.

screamingbohemian · 01/11/2011 13:49

'And what about 'failure to progress' as a term, which actually means 'failure to dilate fast enough for our arbitrary timeframe that fits our budget and targets for throughput of birthing women. The woman's body is most certainly NOT failing at anything, but ripening in her own time at a pace that optimally meets her and her baby's needs.'

Please. I was stuck at 2 cm for 24 hours after my waters broke, despite having constant excruciating contractions (maybe 10 seconds between each?) and 8 hours of an induction drip. Then my temperature soared, indicating possible infection. The midwives ignored the instructions from my antenatal consultant who said that for several reasons I should not have a prolonged labour. Finally I insisted on seeing a consultant, who was the first person all day to actually feel my abdomen and discover the baby was not engaged. I had an EMCS, after which the surgeon told me that for various reasons, my baby would never have been born naturally.

I despair at comments such as yours. Do you actually believe that women's bodies are incapable of 'failing'? That birth is some perfect process that only goes wrong when we interfere with it?

My body did not work. I'm really not bothered by it and I don't need someone saying that 'failure to progress' is not real to make me feel better.

juuule · 01/11/2011 13:53

The woman is delivering her own baby. She is being "delivered of".

As regards consent for internals. I was asked beforehand each time.

It is difficult to know what to do for the best as regards staying out of the way while a woman gives birth. For my first, I wanted a running commentary, I didn't want to be on my own. It was all strange and unfamiliar (not my surroundings - the experience of labour).
For other births, I just wanted to be on my own and get on with it. People irritated me. So, I stayed home until transition.
How does someone who has only just met you know whether you want them to stay or go at that point? How can they stay if the services are overstretched? If you are under their care how can they leave you alone if they have protocols to follow?

StarlightMcKenzie · 01/11/2011 13:56

screamingbohem You're being obtuse. I don't believe there are never any medical issues that require specialist intervention.

I do however, believe that a number of 'failures' of women's bodies are caused by the system in the first place and the interference of this with the essential and fundamental workings and hormones that are found in a woman's body during childbirth.

Adrenaline is a huge childbirth-stopper for example. It is evolution's way of telling the baby 'it ain't safe out there, better stay put for a bit until the mother's adrenaline levels drop, her happy hormones increase and signal that all is well in the world and that there will be plenty of unrushed time to birth at your pace.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 01/11/2011 13:57

I failed to dilate. I hate to say it because I know it's a cliché but ds probably would have died has I not had an EMCS. It had fuck all to do with an arbitrary timeframe.

wrt no need to induce women who are overdue - really? Really? Good grief.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 01/11/2011 13:59

x-post starlight I thinkg screamingbohem was taking your posts at face value - I certainly was.

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