Calls for Help Freeing Up Family Homes

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Free Up Family Homes The charity 'The Intergenerational Foundation' is recommending tax breaks to encourage older people to leave oversized homes. They estimate that there are 25 million unused bedrooms in England. Half of over 65's have 2 or more spare rooms in their home. Housing minister Grant Shapps doesn't sound keen on the idea. But what do you think? Should home-owners and tenants be encouraged to trade down for public-spirited reasons? Or should they be able to rattle around in their multiple spare bedrooms and left alone?

We downsized from a three storey town house to a bungalow but it was because we wanted a]to release the equity in the bigger house b] to get rid of the stairs and c] to move nearer to dd.
I would have resented anyone trying to pressurize us to move.We still have two spare rooms which get a lot of use from visiting friends/family and otherwise are a study[v.small] and a second sitting room and hobbies room [with sofa bed].We worked hard,we paid off our mortgage and raised our family the choice of where/how to live should surely be ours.

i dont think its very fair of some posters who are implying that the older generation worked harder and were more sensible with their money. society as a whole was not set up on credit arrangements back then as it is now, the new generation of parents are beginning their adult lives already saddled with student debt and find it very hard to save enough money for a deposit to buy a house which is currently at what, 7-9 times the average wage?
my father worked hard, did ridiculous amounts of overtime etc, and yes, was frugal too, but the house he bought was not 7-9 times the average wage back then-it was more like 2 or 3.
its not fair to force people out of their too large homes, but ways to encourage people to downsize (at any age) are
offer 12 months free nursing care to those who do
and/or
tax bedrooms that are unoccupied by people for more than 6 months out of 12...i should imagine these figures would be reasonably easy to discover from the electoral register

I know someone who lives in a house that's worth 1.5 million. She bought it for 8 thousand in 1971. She has 4 sons who have all either moved away from the area or live in box-like council accomodation. Her grandchildren are still living with their parents because the can't afford to move out - those with young children have had to move out of the area completely. She lets part of her house out at a very low rent because she likes the young couple, leaving her with 3 massive bedrooms, an enormously grand front room, a dining room and separate kitchen diner.

This has created huge resentment in the family but in the end it is her choice and her right to live how and where she wants to. She doesn't think of herself as selfish, she considers that at the age of 83 she should be able to do exactly what she wants. The fact is you can't force the elderly to do anything. What you can do is to encourage a culture of downsizing or sharing with relatives, but many people of that generation pride themselves on their independence and see sharing as a weakness. I think a cultural change is needed.

tax bedrooms? Really?

So my MIL, who has never done a day's work in her entire life and was divorced by 23, should get free everything including care home but my parents, who BOTH worked their arses off should now be taxed again because they had the audacity to work hard to buy a good house?

And if you start taxing unoccupied bedrooms, what effect do you think that would have on the housing market?

Oh, oh, oh! I saw the OP in 'discussions of the day' and thought 'Yes!'. Oh, yes.

I guess it's a personal thing as well. Now, yes, I love my mum in so many ways but god, does it get my goat when she spouts all that 'worked hard and earned it' stuff regarding all the Grey Vote perks she's getting. Well, guess what, I'm working hard, a bloody site harder than you ever had to, me and DH- and I'm paying for it, IT being YOUR PENSION (and free bus pass, free prescriptions, winter fuel allowance etc), not MINE, too! (she's 79). And like - I think it was Bugsy said on page 1- my mum spent her life doing 'pin-money' part time jobs. My dad was 'the wage earner' who bought the family home in 1969 for £6,000 (3 times his annual salary). It's now worth £420,000 - and mum has the audacity to complain about the government considering means-testing the winter fuel allowance as hey, those 3 empty bedrooms need heating, too! And can you BELIEVE that the council may not choose to fund free bus passes for the 'elderly' next year? Bear in mind dad retired at 57. You read that right. He was no entrepreneur, no chancer- but a middle ranking manager in a well-known electronic engineering company. Mum did a small, social part time job to 60, locally. They've been living a well financed life (final salary scheme pension etc) ever since (OK, dad died 5 years ago, mum's pension share from his private 'pot' fell 20%, that's all).

YET she will say to ME when I say- 'Oh, I might be a bit late coming over to yours on Sunday (as we do every Sunday) as I have to work', she'll say - 'Mm- we-e-e-ll, working, what, again?... I hope you're thinking of your family when you take this on' WTF? Yes, silly me, I was thinking that if I work a Sunday 9 hour shift we can pay the gas bill, like?! And, when DH does the weekly family shop, or at least 75% of it of a Saturday morning- I do the rest- (which he likes doing, albeit alone...), she'll say- 'Oh, erebus (I hate why she called me that..[hgrin] ), he's good to you, doing your shopping like that/many men wouldn't'. Well, that'd be because when you were my age you could fanny around the shops whereas I need to WORK. And have to till I'm at least 67- maybe LONGER as I have DC to finance through college and university, like you got for us for free.

Then the final 'insult', involved in a local NIMBY campaign to prevent a new housing estate in the next village as it'll lower the property values in her cosy little middle class, retired 'enclave'! Mum lives on a rural lane of 14 houses- all with 1/3 acre gardens (and gatepost whining about paying for help to mow it all... shouldn't the council do that? ). 2 have families in them. Most are 4 bedroom and of course, the vast majority of inhabitants are post-retirement couples and singles. Mum's been there 40 years. She is the 3rd longest dwelling inhabitant of the road, the rest are newer, mainly much newer, and moaning about the loooong trips to see offspring and grandchildren (USA, Australia) so don't pull the 'uprooted from their community' argument, as it doesn't wash!

Yes, I know this is all a rant, and it's not even born of sheer envy- DH and I own outright our own 4 bedroom house (2 DC) but I sicken of the way our current governments are so hell bent on favouring the Grey Vote over those who will be paying for it, like me and my DC. Even unto the 3rd generation. NO, don't send the elderly eviction notices. But phase in a scheme where they can choose to either do 'the sensible thing' and downsize-and qualify for a huge tax break- or wear the true cost of choosing to live in big, empty, echoey 4 bedroom homes whilst many of their offspring live in 4 person families in 2 bedroom flats. Whilst granny and grandad spend their days writing irate letters to their MP demanding the HALT the monstrosity of affordable housing in their backyard.

Rant over.

funnyperson
why does it need for someone to die before the younger ones help to clear out the house?

Neither my parents nor DHs would be at all grateful if we turned up and started telling them to sell/chuck out their stuff. They like and want to keep their things. Okay, none of them are that old (they're certianly not elderly!) but I doubt their attitude is going to change.

Why do modern people turn up their noses at perfectly good houses just because there is no home cinema and the kitchens /bathrooms need updating?

As a renter I certainly wouldn't, and I know plenty of people who live in imperfect houses saving up to update. I know more who live in new builds, because new builds are more easily available and still usually cheaper for a comparitive no of bedrooms (though not size wise usually) but your budget is what it is.

Why don't the elderly take in lodgers?

Often because they're afraid of younger people. There's an interesting result of the last census which showed that people tend to live in different areas segregated not just by income but by age and family status, and that as this has become more pronounced so has fear of people 'not like you'. Which is very sad obviously.

Why do most houses nowadays have to be split between siblings so that they end up having to be sold as one sibling cant afford to buy out the other?

Because there's often more than one child and parents don't want to unduly favour one or the other. There are hundreds of thousands of pounds at stake, it's totally understandable.

Why do grandchildren not want to be left their grandparents houses?

Families tend to live in much more spread out areas. If my parents were to die, their house wouldn't be much use to either me or my sister as we both live/work/are settled hours away. Even if one of us was able to buy out the other I'm not sure that we could manage the maintenance costs. The cash however, will help us buy our own homes.

abendbrot of those overcrowded grandchildren, how many would have agreed to live with, and be pleasant to grandma, in return for sharing the house at a lowish rent?

Well I for one can't wait for DS2 to move out so DH and I can sell our largish 4 bedroomed house and move into a 2 bed flat. Less housework, more time for fun, less problems when we want to travel.

And as for all the 'we work/ed hard' quoters...

Yes, we all work hard- whether it's wiping bottoms in a nursing home or hedge fund management- but our generation and the next will be working a bloody sight LONGER* to get the 'same' rewards!

I get annoyed at worked hard and earned it too.

I know an elderly couple who were in a very similar situation to DH and I (1 SAHP, 1 working in very similar role to DH) when they bought mortgage was 2.5x their salary. For DH and I to buy a comparable house now would be 15x our salary. If DH got a payrise every year for ten years, and I went back to work asap we still wouldn't be able to get a mortgage for a comparible house - the multiples would be insane and we would never be able to make the payments.

Just to add, obviously I don't resent the elderly couple in question - they are perfectly welcome to their (lovely!) home, and it would be totally wrong IMO to kick them out.

It's just not true that they have worked any harder than we have.

By the way, I am not a granny, I have a mum and dad with a 4 bed etc house, and I love knowing they are comfortable, I have a 4 bed etc house, I hope my children will have 4 bed etc houses (if they want them) but do you know what, I resented the dollar signs in my ex husband's eyes when he looked at my parents house and they are still alive and I resented the dollar signs in the divorce lawyers eyes because hey, the value of your parents home is taken into account in divorce proceedings, and the Royal Courts of Justice judge felt it was wrong for my parents to be 'rattling around' in their home and they should sell up so as to provide for my ex H . ( They didnt- but we spent a lot on lawyers fees) thats why this whole thread touches a raw nerve with me. I don't think envy of older people's homes is innocent at all. I think it can lead to a lot of serious nastiness.

Funnyperson that is awful. How on earth did they try and justify trying to force your parents to sell their home over their child's divorce?!

'I think older people are more likely to look for single-level apartments or bungalows than houses. A lot would like to have some kind of warden control or other security. So not 'care homes' but retirement communities where they are with people the same age and which have facilities they value. '

I couldn't imagine anything worse than being in a retirement community with other elderly people, and I imagine many elderly feel like that too. They may also find warden controlled intrusive. As to sheltered accommodation - how many of you have actually been inside the claustrophobic one bedroom flats that comprise many of the sheltered accommodation blocks?

Many retired people enjoy living in a normal community - they volunteer, they are involved in many aspects of community life, and many things wouldn't run without them. It sounds as if many on here would like to stick then on an old people's ghetto.

As for taxing underused bedrooms - I don't suppose the electoral roll would tell you in which bedrooms people sleep, or if they share a room. My retired Mum owns her two bed house outright - one bedroom is only used when she had guests. Why should she downsize further?

As to our generation paying for our parents pensions - yep we do, just like our parents paid for our grandparents through NI. That particular ponzi scheme is the fault of HMGs over the decades - not the fault of the pensioners, so it seems disingenuous to blame them.

I thought that council tax bands g and h were the incentive to downsize.

It's all bits of paper really; who owns what.

I can't see anything wrong with incentivising people to downsize. It's insane that people are trying to raise families in cramped conditions when house are semi-used.

Where I grew up, there are no children now. None. The residents themselves joke about it being a retirement community now.

(Oh I forgot, one house has been rented out to a young immigrant family. My own bloody father is campaigning to have them evicted as they put their rubbish out on the wrong days and their garden is full of toys junk).

So what happens to these £500K plus houses when we've booted incentivised the elderly to move out?
Do they suddenly drop down in price so far that those living seven a bed in tiny flats can afford them?

If there are more family homes on the market, prices will go down.

Supply and demand innit.

My parents 500k plus house - apart from us not being able to afford it
(I don't think they're that biased that they'd cut the price by 3/4 for me ) is not on the gas network. Their oil bill makes my eyes water.

Yes, in the very long term.And only if enough older people want to downsize. And never enough for people who can only afford a two bed flat.

we need to stop building these massive houses in the first place. who really needs these gigantic expensive homes anyway? where i live mansions go up day after day and plots are taken to build big houses on the 'nicer' part of town.

plots in the busier areas is where flats are being built, not houses just flats.

this argument always bugs me, it's always aimed at one single pensioner 'ralling' around a relatively small house anyway (like my mil) and the though of moving (we've tried to get her to 'downsize') literally panics her. it's not just about investments or memories- we have to respect that older people need to feel safe in their homes and living where they always have is comforting to some.

we need to build more homes for families. rather than flat or mansions.

'rattling' oops

My folks would love to downsize (5 bed, plus annexe, barn, huge garden) but no-one is buying. Similarly, we have a fairly decent income and there is no way we could afford it.

They have worked hard. But so do millions of others. My mother worked when she felt like it but was a SAHM really, my dad went to sea at 16 but retired at 52. They bought their current place for £250k in 2000, it is currently valued at over £700k. No mortgage, their previous house had been bought for £78k and sold for over £350k. One salary, 2 kids, private school, yacht etc. So I don't think they have worked any harder than DH and I will have done, but we are very unlikely to see the changes they have. (I dont work, but never let that get in the way of a principle eh.)

My dad still tuts and huffs and wonders why my generation moves every decade or so, why do we waste so much money, why don't we just buy a family home first time, we are so financially unsavvy etc. On pointing out to him that few of us could afford the type of property he was referring to (well, maybe if we moved away, we are on the South Coast but work, family etc is here) so we have to move up the ladder as and when we can afford to he still looks a little sceptical.

I don't think they should be 'made' to move out, but I have NO TIME for them whinging on about council tax, water rates and heating bills IF they are rattling around in big houses.

If they really want to incentivise down sizing there is plenty the government could do, but they won't: No winter fuel allowance for those in certain council tax bands, ditto TV licence exemption, free prescriptions, assistance with opticians, dentist, bus passes etc for starters. Remove the rules about money held in property for the purposes of nursing home assessment.

Part of the trouble with 'old' people is that many of them are not actually old. On the bus I heard 2 middle aged looking people moaning that their free bus passes don't start early enough to allow them to use them to get to work