Joanna Yeates case - why is this happening at all?

[Ponders]

It seems clear that he did kill her, & I don't see how he can claim it was unintentional, so why do her poor parents have to be put through such harrowing evidence?

Oh I see- sorry. I totally misread it. I guess it doesn't really matter though, because if you strangle someone and don't kill them, you can get the same sentence as if you do.I know this probably doesn't happen in practice, but even so.

You could get 15 years for strangling someone and not killing them, but only 7 years for beating them with an iron bar but not killing them.

More information on mens rea here

Thanks, but looking at it practically, if you commit GBH, but the victim doesn't die, you get 7 yrs max sentence, even if you meant to kill them, unless of course the prosecution goes for attempted murder. If you strangle someone,you can get life on the same basis without the prosecution having to prove attempted murder. Surely that's good for strangulation victims?

Not ignoring you, Bride. I've got another "yes, but" brain itch regarding your last post. I'll back when I have the words. Of course, I might be totally wrong in my previous posts about mens rea for murder, but the experts have gone all quiet on us.

I'm surprised at people saying they thought his defence sounded plausible, because to me it sounded completely implausible. I mean, have you ever heard of someone being strangled accidentally? Quite apart from the fact that there were bruises and scars all over her body.

I also think the judge should have allowed the evidence on pornography. Man gets kick from watching women being strangled. Man then goes and strangles woman. The argument that it was accidental then becomes even less plausible.

"I believe that withholding the information that showed his sexually naive, monogamous boyfriend routine was a lie did manage to help him convince others of his version of events even though what we know now and the guilty verdict proves he lied."

Agreed. Deborah Orr had a good piece in The Guardian a couple of months ago about giving evidence in court against a man who burgled her house - she summed up the experience by saying the defence are allowed to commit perjury but the prosecution aren't.

And to me, this is where the whole argument of "everyone is entitled to a defence" falls down. Why should people be entitled to lie in court? If a prosecution witness lies, they get sent to prison for perjury. If a defence witness or barrister lies (and Tabak's defence barrister did lie), then there is no comeback.

Her screaming when he went to kiss her sounded strange and not the way I'd expect most women to react to that. I'd also have thought you'd be more likely to try and stop someone screaming by putting your hand over their mouth rather than on their throat. Glad the right decision was made, would have hated to be on the jury.

hackmum - thank you. That's another itch scratched - the whole perjury issue, but not as defence. Happens a lot in rape cases too.

Back to the strangulation not being part of the mens rea for murder as GBH is, I wonder whether my problem is that I want these men to be recorded as murderers of women. I want that recognition for the victims and their families and for their murder to be reflected in the statistics and the public record. I also don't want there to be another case like this (though there will be) where intent is not clear because strangulation is not GBH and therefore needs extra proof of intent. It's nonsensical to me. If someone tried to strangle me, I reckon I'd be pretty certain that person was trying to kill me. Is there anyone who wouldn't?

Scarlett, it was Jane Longhurst who was murdered by Graham Coutts in Brighton in 2003. He was an extensive user of extreme pornography, including that involving strangulation, which is how he murdered Jane Longhurst.

Thank-you KRITIQ. The similarities are scary

I feel "users" of this type of pornography are dangerous and disturbed to want to see these kind of images and get sexually turned on. The fact that there is a market for them is extremely sick and worrying. And the Women are quite obviously being hurt in the real sense in these "films".

Why do some men hate Women so much

The father of landscape architect Jo Yeates says the decision not to tell the jury about her murderer's use of violent pornography was correct.

Edith
Jo's parents have also expressed a wish that Tabak receive the death penalty.
www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gqTqQ1BvPI3VahaPBq8xvXz6Ww9Q?docId=N0340851319843504194A

Relatives of murder victims should not be involved in sentencing or the judicial process for very good reason.

www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gqTqQ1BvPI3VahaPBq8xvXz6Ww9Q?docId=N0340851319843504194A