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Theresa May wants to scrap the human rights act

171 replies

electra · 03/10/2011 07:41

I heard this on radio 4 at the weekend.

Apparently it's something to do with 'foreigners taking advantage' - wow the tories have a nice way of sounding prejudiced against just about anyone don't they?

OP posts:
AbsDuWolef · 03/10/2011 15:56

Either, they could do a Switzerland and adopt some of the EU legislation that they like, or the UK could do whatever they wanted.

As there is no UK specific Bill of Human Rights or the equivalent (outside of the HRA), rights would either be protected through existing legislation and case law or the UK would need to bring in it's own revised legislation.

PeachyWhoCannotType · 03/10/2011 15:59

If you read my post several pages (I presume, my MN not set to pages) above I said why I think it is.

Not the act but the way it is used WRT to Lawyers twisting it.

Absolutely control that; I am not a big fan of claims culture and do believe that within the realms of possibility (eg competence for disabled people etc) responsibilities come with rights.

But rights are not best served by giving free reign to departments whose number one priority is to save money and removing people's recourse.

There is not one item in the HRA I disagree with.

The difference between disagreeing with the HRA and how crappy Lawyers twist it to protect dubious individuals is wide.There is nothing in the HRA entitling Prisoners to a TV, or any of the tabloid crap that seems to be spouted.

Dawndonna · 03/10/2011 16:03

Gramercy, sorry, don't do knee jerk emotional arguments. The Human Rights act is a document of law.
Apart from which, if a 'foreigner' has committed a crime and may not be deported, he/she can serve their time in a British jail.

PeachyWhoCannotType · 03/10/2011 16:04

Why would the UK bring in legislation to support rights that people use to force state agencies to deliver services that cost money?

I don't mean knee jerk stuff- schools will exist, etc etc- I mean the litle things like forcing the LEA to provide someone to change ds3's nappies whilst awaiting a MS place (I had to do it myself until I simply no longer could not, was heavily PG and only space in a corner on the floor- teachers ended up pulling me upright in the end!), or ds1 having lunchtime 1-1 which stopped him harming other children. My only other option was to remove him from education as he did not qualify then (does now) for a SNU place but was injuring children daily because of his ASD and not surprisingly it got to the point where the mums were calling their DHs to threaten me.

These are the things I used EU legislation for, to force things that the Government deemed too costly.

OTheHugeWerewolef · 03/10/2011 16:58

This is really difficult. See, there are a couple of tricky things about enshrining certain rights like this, with the imposition of a more Napoleonic system on top of the existing largely common law one. Firstly, that it short-circuits any discussion about what the core responsibilities of the social contract are. So a bunch of stuff that's taken for granted, such as capital infrastructure (eg roads, railways) doesn't get included but a bunch of stuff that feels hard-won or under threat (eg minority rights) does get included.

I assume some things will continue to be supported by the state in a common-law type way, ie because that's how it's worked in recent memory while other things are protected by statute. I can't take the state to court about potholes or the failing rail system, regardless of their impact on my quality of life; but I can if I'm being discriminated against at work on account of being female.

That, then, creates a kind of two-tier set of expectations: one lot protected by statute, one lot merely a matter of common law and custom. The only way to change this is by adding statutory protection for a wider set of the things currently falling under common law. This is arguably what's going on when you hear of people going to the ECHR over matters which, in common-sense terms, aren't really about human rights at all - for example the right to install a satellite dish on a building when the building freeholder has forbidden it.

Meanwhile, it's not possible to have the debate about whether the balance is right: are we giving statutory protection to the right set of things? In protecting minority rights but not national infrastructure, have we got our priorities right? This is an ethical and philosophical debate. I don't know where I stand on it. But it does worry me that it doesn't seem possible to have it, because it's already a fait accompli.

In questioning the HRA it's easy to fudge the issue and claim that in doing so I'm questioning questioning Riven's or Peachy's determination to get education and proper treatment for their DC. I'm not. But I do think it's worth having a proper, serious debate about which rights we enshrine as it were 'above' the normal course of legislation, if we're not acknowledging that this is in effect what's happening. Because while it may start with an entirely worthy and deserving set of cases using these laws to protect interests such as those of SN children, it may rapidly become something that's abused by people with access to expensive lawyers, simply to protect entirely selfish interests that have nothing whatsoever to do with the spirit of the original laws and in the process invalidating a legal system that has served the UK reasonably well for centuries and centuries.

Ryoko · 03/10/2011 17:35

I said about this on Facebook so I'll say the same here.

Workmen blaming their tools, you could rip up all the legislation in the world it will not make an once of difference to anything so long as we are run by a bunch of spinless, self serving, Estonian overlords who haven't got a clue about the real world or how to run it.

we should be careful of any PR exercises against legislation ensighted by ministers, they care only for themselves the only thing about this country they want to improve is their own bank balances and powers.

The Human Rights Act is far reaching and for the benefit of all, we would be wise to interpret it in a just way, rather then throw it away like fools and give the powers that be free reign.

electra · 03/10/2011 17:44

Disabled people are very vulnerable targets of abuse - isn't this already clear from the recent Winterbourne Down case? There is a wider issue of when our children with SEN grow up at hand here. Most of us already can't sleep at night thinking about what will happen to our kids when they grow up into adults who can't work and require round the clock care.

Oh, but wait a minute if they can pick up a pen they're fit for work apparently. I am cynical and I believe that the tories want to do this so that they can put these kind of measures in place (ie no financial support for disabled adults, no DLA for the terminally ill) without someone saying 'you are in breach of the human rights act'. TM plays on people's racist tendencies - this kind of propaganda is age old, governments do it all the time.

However, from the report I heard scrapping of the act is extremely unlikely to happen any time soon so we're safe for now........(and our children)

I'm just astounded and horrified at how the tories haven't progressed in any ways at all since the days of Thatcher.

OP posts:
LaWeasel · 03/10/2011 17:54

The HRA is hugely important, I would be utterly devastated if it were to go - it's so basic... why the hell are people so willing to give up their right to not be forced to be a slave?!

WRT foreign criminals, tbh I would rather they served time here for crimes committed here. Not every country's legal system is as thorough as ours, and I loathe the idea of criminals being sent home and then basically being 'let off' by their own governments. Not what I would want if I was a victim of their crime.

JennyPiccolo · 03/10/2011 18:20

Theresa may is a psycho who wants you to be scared of foreigners. It seems to be working for some people.

Ryoko · 03/10/2011 18:24

JennyPiccolo wrote:
"Theresa may is a psycho who wants you to be scared of foreigners. It seems to be working for some people."

Shes not the only one by a long way it's a convenient smoke screen for the government, for any government, it's been tried, tested and proven to work for years.

JennyPiccolo · 03/10/2011 18:30

I was thinking about this the other night, i was out in glasow, saw people of all ethnic backgrounds having a good time, most with scottish accents, some sikh guys wearing kilts, etc. and thought WHAT THE FUCK isnt working about multicultural Britain? They just want us to be terrified of each other so we'll put up and shut up.

JennyPiccolo · 03/10/2011 18:31

Sorry for crap grammar, on my phone.

PeachyWhoCannotType · 03/10/2011 19:07

Yep Jenny you see that here- nobody is shunning the Muslim kids or parents at school, there are no problems with walking through the Muslim area of our city if you are white, Dad is not upset that most of his workmates are Polish, he just carries a Polish dictionary for complicated exchanges and it works fine.

In most places it is absolutely fine; we would be better focussing on the ones where it isn't working and sorting out why than dismissing it as a failed project. A quick read of any topic at all on the Yahoo news pages ('my kitten has two tails' 'must be the fault of those immigrants') shows just how gullible people are though.

That's not to dismiss worries about jobs and housing- but those are perfectly possible to discuss without pretending the UK is descending into some kind of racial warfare.

Scarletbanner · 03/10/2011 19:58

Of course we should keep the HRA. But I don't think there's any prospect of losing it any time soon. This was just a bit of raw Tory meat for Theresa May throw to the Party faithful ahead of conference.

There is no way the LibDems would let this happen. Tory high command don't really want to either, but this way they can blame someone else and dangle this in front of their troops as an example of something a pure Tory government would do.

BikingViking · 03/10/2011 21:27

I find this quite scary - I didn't realise that there would be people who would want to get rid of the HRA? I'm not a lawyer but having looked at the HRA just now, I think all those things are basic needs - the right to life, freedom of thought, innocent until proven guilty by a fair trial, no discrimination, the right to vote and to have an education etc.

If all those things were protected by UK law before the HRA, then why not just keep the HRA? Is the only objection because it is an EU thing and not a British thing? Sorry for being slow on the uptake, just trying to work out why people would want to scrap the HRA - aside from the 'argument' that (paraphrasing) the HRA means that British prisons are overrun with foreign criminals and is stopping them from being deported.

Regarding the apparently huge fear of foreigners in the UK - has anyone seen this ?

alemci · 03/10/2011 21:48

i think it is a good idea. It has been a disaster for GB when Blair introduced this. All it seems to mean is that foreign criminals can't deported and we end up paying out huge amounts of compensation to people such as the anti semitic hate preacher because of some technicality of us not having a translator for him. also what about that chap who killed the little girl after being banned from driving because of his right to family life in the uk.

I believe that there is plenty in our legislation to protect people without the HRA. It seems like the silent law abiding majority don't have any rights.

The judges always seem to intepret it in favour of criminals so please please get rid of it. The sooner the better.

Dawndonna · 03/10/2011 22:01

Alemci, the Daily Mail website is that way>

JennyPiccolo · 03/10/2011 22:35

good link, bikingviking. I always wonder how folk cant look something up on wikipedia or the like before having a moral outrage about it?

alemci, that's THE FEAR talking. It's not as bad as you think.

LaWeasel · 04/10/2011 10:36

Yes it's very interesting - particularly that under EU law we can deport fpreign criminals after 2 years of their sentence, and lowering that would mean we'd have to accept more of our own criminals back from other countries.

johnhemming · 04/10/2011 12:36

Learco chindamo killed Philip Lawrence, the head teacher. He could not be deported because of his human rights. He is fucking Italian.
He could not be deported because people have freedom of movement within the EEA.

The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU. The court is managed by the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe and the European Council are completely different things.

I put more details about european institutions on my weblog
johnhemming.blogspot.com/2011/10/referendum-on-europe-spanish-question.html

Whereas there is some tweaking that needs to be looked at, there is no sense in scrapping the Human Rights Act.

DoNotPressTheRedButton · 04/10/2011 13:51

Oh to the person who first raised the issue John quoted

Learco is not fucking Italian, he is Italian. It's his criminality that is fucking, not his nationality. Fucking Learco is Italian would be fine; what you typed is not.

Presumably will be jumped on but not that bothered.

maypole1 · 04/10/2011 16:32

gramercy totally agree I works for ss and I am sick of seeing parents who have raped and abused their children get them back under the guise of right to family life when they shouldn't be able to look after a plant let alone a child

How awful to know someone who fathers 10 children up and down the country that he never sees nor supports can kill someone then stay even though he's illegal because of right to family life and the kicker is the persons family who he's killed trough their taxes have to pay for the scum to get benefits and get housed when they come out of what would sure to be a woefully short sentence

I am sick of people demanding their rights but not knowing their responsabilitys.

maypole1 · 04/10/2011 16:35

LaWeasel no because then they end up being here so fucking long they then claim under article 8

Also if someone won't tell you were their from who do you suppose we deport them

My view is after jail place them in detention centre until they tell us if they won't then they can fricken stay their

This is the most claimed under article as the majority of claims made under this article get approved people are no longer claiming as much under fear a d persecution the whole thing is messed up as soon as their convicted they should be shipped back home

DoNotPressTheRedButton · 04/10/2011 16:44

And you are happy to take back all our citizens in prison abroad under the same criteria then Maypole1?

Mind I also worked in a similar job to you (charity sector though) and whilst I completely agree about famillies getting children back it wasn't becuase of citing teh HRA, it was because SSD do everything by financial calculation and care costs.

alemci · 04/10/2011 16:46

Jenny I think it is pretty bad. I know the Daily Mail is the devil's spawn but if this law is preventing certain criminals being deported then it needs to be altered. It is also abused by prisoners as well especially our wonderful friend Captain Hook.