Prescott back stabs Blair.

[RudolphsAuntMabel]

Hurrah for John Prescott!! (never thought I'd say that!).

Has told the telegraph that he will fight Tory Blair on the school reforms - the ones that will allow state schools to be selective - 2 tier class system.

I for one agree with John. I was lucky enough to go to a great state High School where the girls in my form were from all different backgrounds and I firmly believe that's a good thing. If you give state schools the option to be selective with the pupils they take and more control over their own finances in the way Tony wants a lot are going to take children from more prosperous back grounds so kids like I was will miss out on a fantastic education just because their parents aren't wealthy.

I love John Prescott!!

auntmabel - surely you mean grouping by ability, not selection by ability?

The problem with grammar schools, is that you can't have them without having secondary moderns.

Is everyone so keen on secondary moderns? Where I live, we have the 11+ and 20% of children get into the grammar at the age of 11.

80% don't get into the grammar, there is one comp in the whole of the area which is fiercely fought over, and the rest of the schools are sink. Really. Sink. So in effect, something like 76% of children in my area are condemned to containment rather than education at the age of 11, unless their parents can afford to pay for their education. There is no 13+, and even if there were, only about 1 or 2% would pass it I imagine, and how disruptive would it be?

I'm all in favour of streaming (don't really understand how you can effectively teach without it tbh) but not by school and not by social class and not forever and for every subject at the age of 11.

The crap thing about the secondary moderns was that they were starved of cash. A child in a SM had 20% of the money spent on him/her than the child in the Granmmer school. (IIRC)

Now, if you put kids into specialist, well designed schools with appropriate curriculum and properly trained staff, spend the cash well (and gave enough to start with) and had opt acrosss schemes each year, I would have no probelms with SM schools.

I know any number of smashing kids getting switched off school because they don't see that it is 'for them'. Give them real vovational education, integrated into real trades in the local commumity, leading to a modern appretiship.....hell I'd sing up my ds now.

Trouble was the SMs were never this, there were crappy, dumping grounds. But them the same can be said for the bottom sets in many comps

My friend went to a school in the eighties which was so big that you had to do either all O levels or all CSE's. The timetabling simply couldn't cope (or couldn't be arsed to cope) with the individual abilities of the children - the fact that some people (like me) were brilliant at English, French etc. and dimwits at science. You either underachieved by getting grade 1 CSE's when you could have got an O level A or you got four A's and failed the rest of the O levels, when you might have been able to get a couple of decent grade CSE's. Slightly off tangent but related in that it was a result of separating pupils by ability for every subject rather than by individual subject - very similar to what the 11+ does, imo.

Another hurrah for prezza

Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but I was reading about a school (up north somewhere IIRC) which has started streaming pupils by ability, resulting in mixed age classes. Sounds like it has been successful so far. I wonder if that idea will be extended?

I saw that too, sd. It's a good idea, but I have a suspicion it will demotivate some of the older ones if they take it too far.

Caligula, snap, were we in the same school?

Yes SP, that was one of the concerns raised in the article I think - demotivating effect on the older ones and possible bullying problems. I don't buy the bullying argument though - the school my kids go to brought in a new mixed age form groups policy precisely to combat bullying by forming relationships between year groups and it has been quite a success from what I gather!

That is very interesting SD, what sge are they? I must sayI am sceptical of it working in secondary

The report (must've been in The Guardian) last week was re: a secondary school MB. Interesting idea, but must be very difficult to organise. What do you think of it? (Will try to find link)

here it is

and not up north at all!

TBH, I don't have a lot of time for simply 'advancing' children in exam classes. I can see why some schools do it, it makes their results look good for a start if the more able can get 11 A*s rather than 9. But I wonder what good it does the kids.

I teach one kid who has been 'advanced' as a rule we don't do it where I teach. I would much prefer the kids to stick with their peers and be given enrichment activities, in things like ethics, philosophy and critacal thought. I'd rather a child leaves able to analyse rather than got more goodies from the exam mill.

I also feel that for kids with SEN, being in with ever younger kids will be very demotivational

I agree with you MB. I can imagine feeling utterly dispirited if I were one of the older kids in the group. And what with league tables and such, it seems to me that our education system is less and less to do with personal development/fulfilment (from a govt pov, not teachers'!) and more and more to do with looking good in league tables and exam mill goodies.

Seems to me there are disadvantages to division by age and division by ability.

MB - I'd love to know what you would do if you were Minister for Education!

Caligula "80% don't get into the grammar, there is one comp in the whole of the area which is fiercely fought over, and the rest of the schools are sink."

that says it all to me really - it's not about what level of school (if that's the right word!) It's about how that school is managed. You can have fabulous comps that, quite rightly, parents fight to get their kids in (we had some great secondary moderns in the 60's) and there are really crap ones that no-one wants their kids to attend - those are the schools that need looking at.

My dad, bless him is 84 - now, when he went to school he was poor I mean really poor (2 roomed house, 8 in a bed, that sort of thing) and only educated to about 14 years of age. he has the most beautiful handwriting and can spell and is very intelligent! There was a lot more discipline then, probably too much and I'm suggesting we go back to those draconian times, but discipline and pride in your school do seem to be the vital ingredients missing these days.

Now There is a good question!

I'd love to get these people to spend a day in a normal comp, a day as just an observer, not usshered in by the Head to selected classes. Then they could see what the poor bloody teachers and kids have to cope with!

I would start with, a real industry driven vocational education from 14+. And end to inclusion for all, I would reintroduce special schools and give them the funding they need this time. I would also have a specilaist EBH unit and SEN unit attached to every school in the land, staffed by specialists. That way kids would be re-intedgrated when and where they could be.

Chilren who's behaviour is wrecking their education and that of the rest in the class would be withdrawn for specialst help....at present we have an 18 month waiting list for anger managment!

I would stream all classes, and limit all class sizes to 20. All children with significant sen in mainstream would be properly supported.

G and T would be enriched, not accelerated

I'll vote for ya

Would it be economically feasible to do this do you think? Why on earth doesn't the govt do exactly what you've just said?

We would have to stup up a fair wack of cash up front. That sai, if children end up educated they are probably less likely to be in need for dole money, prisons and mental health services! And there is a national shorage of things like pulumbers and brick layers.

I'd stop this silly 'everyone has to go to uni' crap and put the money into primary and secondary education first. At present in the school I work in, which is a good one btw, 100 children out of 1300 are funtionaly illiterate. What chance them getting to a uni?

SD, why don't they do it? Because they are wedded to ideas for doctrinal reasons, rather than practical ones.

@we are all eual' they keep saying, so everyone gets the same educatuion, that is 'fair'

Well, sorry everyone isn't equal, equally valid, for sure.

But to each according to his need and then we can get from each according to his abilities. Dear old Marx, I don't agree with him on much, but that is my educational mantra, if you like

G and T would be enriched? Eh? How do you enrich Gin and Tonic?

Oh obviously, with ice and lemon...

Big bowl of Macadamia nuts for e and fat black olives!

I would love to see our education system become more flexible and open-ended in terms of age. Allow under 16s to specialise if they want to, for instance. And get rid of the commonly held belief that education is over when you leave school (or college). As someone who dropped out of school early (through rebelliousness but also a feeling of disillusionment that school wasn't able to meet my educational needs), it has been a struggle for me to continue with my education as an adult, and it's getting worse with government cuts to adult education and HE fees. Surely it could be made easier and more flexible somehow?

Couldn't agree more SD. One of the things which used to really wind me up about Blair was this bloody mantra he used to have "You only get one chance of education" in that sonorous, pompous tone of his. It used to drive me to scream at the TV in a frenzy: "So why the f*k not make sure that people get more than one chance!!!"