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Original poster

Burglar stabbed by homeowner, other burglar arrested...homeowner arrested

63 replies

Triggles · 18/09/2011 22:38

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14963811

I don't understand this. The family/friends are laying flowers outside the house that he had broken in to and was killed. I get that they are family and friends and are upset, but seems a bit wrong to be putting the flowers outside the house of the burglary victim, does it not?

OP posts:
JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 09:06

Burglers really are scum of the highest order. They deserve everything they get if they break into someone's home.

I am very happy to see the law being sensible on many of these cases like the old guy who stabbed a scum to death when he was pistolwhipped in his own shop.

Bloody hero, in my eyes.

I get sick to the back teeth of bleeding heart liberals bleating on about human rights for scum like this. The minute you enter someone's house without their permission where their children are sleeping, you give up every right in my book.

NotADudeExactly · 19/09/2011 09:18

Let me somewhat qualify and explain my position here; I'm not always at my subtlest and/or clearest after a night shift:

Yes, I do believe that there should be such a thing as a right of self-defense. This may be applicable in this case due to the householder being threatened; I will happily admit that I had previously overlooked this part. IMHO it is correct for the man to be arrested insofar as such cases should be judged on a case by case basis, which needs to happen within the legal framework. It's wrong to say you cannot defend yourself. It's also wrong to assume that any measure taken against an intruder is necessarily justified. Shooting a fleeing burglar in the back, for example, is different than whacking someone over the head from the back when they are holdkng a knife in your husband's face. The ideal way of doing this might be arrest by appointment and release on bail instead of what seems to be the case here.

No, a householder fatally injuring a burglar is not a cause for celebration. It's still a tragedy, not least for the dead person's family. (Yes, if a member of my family were a criminal I'd still be sad if they died). No, you do not give up basic human rights as soon as you break the law. In fact how a society treats its least likeable members is arguably more of an indicator of how fair it is than anything else. Yes, you should avoid killing burglars if possible and, yes, you might freak out and overreact if scared enough.

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 09:18

And if he hadn't have been carrying a knife, he wouldn't have been stabbed.

Isn't that always the rule? If you carry a knife, expect it to be turned on you.

cookcleanerchaufferetc · 19/09/2011 09:25

Not a dude - YABU

Queen of denial - spot on.

These days burlary isnt always burglary, it can lead to raping, toture, murder of the homeowners .... if a burglar ends up dying due to self defence such as in this case, tough. No sympathy.

Please can someone in that area chuck all those flowers in the bin. It is not fair to the family who lives there.

BupcakesandCunting · 19/09/2011 09:26

Apparently he was stabbed with his own blade. Hard luck for him, IMO, that he happened to come up against someone bigger and stronger than he was. I expect he was hoping that he'd meet less resistance in the form of a woman/elderly person. Why did he have a knife if he wasn't at least planning to threaten with it? Was he planning on carving a turkey? Hmm

This type of thing seems to be becoming more commonplace. It might make would-be burglars think twice if they consider that there might be a chance they might come out of it worse off...

JillySnooper · 19/09/2011 09:28

Quite Bupcakes

He clearly thought he could terrify and threaten woman or child but wasn't prepared for a man bigger, better and stronger than he could ever be.

RantyMcRantpants · 19/09/2011 09:38

Just reading the follow on report to say he's been bailed till October but it also describes that there is a gold Mazerati and a. Silver range rover with personalised plates along with a White transit van on the drivew what the bleeding heck does that have to do with anything? That've got money so that makes it alright then? Awful reporting by the BBC.

Why haven't the police asked the family not to lay flowers. I would be so ashamEd if that had been my son. Yes i eould still love him but...Worlds gone skew.

BupcakesandCunting · 19/09/2011 09:40

Well, you know Ranty, these people have rights, y'know? They have the right to grieve. Outside the house where their loved one planned on robbing and threatening the owners with a knife. Hmm Fucking thickos.

RantyMcRantpants · 19/09/2011 09:40

Sorry about typing but on my iPhone and keep having coughing fits.

Meant to say if that was my son I would be so ashamed but still love him and I would apologising to the homeowners.

RantyMcRantpants · 19/09/2011 09:46

Tell ms about it Bupcakes my attacker went to court and although I had identified him the police hadn't followed proceedure to the letter, the line up only had 6 men in instead of the normal number ( video line up, his choice) he walked free.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 19/09/2011 09:59

"It's also wrong to assume that any measure taken against an intruder is necessarily justified. "

The law already covers that adequately. The test is whether the self-defence was 'reasonable' and 'proportionate' in the circumstances. Lying in wait with shotguns or booby-trapping your property in advance is neither reasonable no proportionate (although if Martin had had a better lawyer and slightly changed his story he'd have got off, I always maintain). Attacking back at an intruder with a knife with whatever comes to hand at the time (including a shotgun, if you have one) is quite reasonable.

The wholly inappropriate flowery shrine is what's in question.... not the homeowner's actions.

CustardCake · 19/09/2011 10:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

blonderedhead · 19/09/2011 10:17

I'm a right old bleeding heart liberal but even I think if you break into a home with a knife and get yourself stabbed, you ain't got much cause for complaint.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 19/09/2011 10:23

I think the significance of the 'large detached home', 'gold Maserati' reports is that the burglar probably picked the wrong target. Big houses in the country get attacked by gangs because they think they'll be stuffed with goodies, occupied by some gentle manicured fat-cat and therefore a soft touch. It's a stereotype but 'businessmen' with a big house, flash cars and vans outside are probably going to be a bit on the tough side themselves....

BupcakesandCunting · 19/09/2011 10:35

I think that Cogito is right in her last post. I don't think for one minute that the BBC and others mentioned their wealth in the context of "they're rich so they're sitting targets." I think they did it for the reasons that Cogito says.

RantyMcRantpants · 19/09/2011 10:48

Hm... Maybe but it doesn't read like that to me.

When the judge told me that my attackers civil rights had been infringed and he was releasing him. Even though he was known to me and I had identified him and my colleague had as well and his lawyer had agreed to us seeing a reduced line up. His civil rights were infringed, what about mine? Sorry went off in an unrelated rant.

cookcleanerchaufferetc · 19/09/2011 11:00

Ranty - WTF! Bloody CPS!

It is about time that human rights applied ONLY to decent law abiding people who have .... dont flame me .... the right to live here. Last bit is meant for people like the illegal immigrant who killed the little car through dangerous driving.

Doodlez · 19/09/2011 11:04

Dead bloke killed BY HIS OWN KNIFE that he'd thoughtfully brought along to burgle house!

This is all happening around the corner from my house. I can tell you what the police have now told us - that the two scrotes who did this were known to the police and the police have been waiting to catch them in the act for a while now.

BupcakesandCunting · 19/09/2011 11:09

And like I said on the other thread on this subject, the burglar was killed with his own knife. He didn't bank on being faced up by someone bigger and stronger than he was. He was probably hedging his bets on there being a woman/elderly person at home, less resistance for his knifey threats. Unluckily for him, he got what he didn't expect. That's what the rest of us call tough shit.

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 11:25

"It is about time that human rights applied ONLY to decent law abiding people who have"

The whole point of human rights is that they apply to all equally, most improtantly perhaps when dealing with those we find abhorrent or distasteful. Otherwise they are pointless.

Doodlez · 19/09/2011 11:31

Human rights should cease to hold any value once the robbing git crosses the threshold to the houseowners property with intent to rob/harm. His choice - his loss. Think this is the case in the USA.

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 11:36

They don't though, and it's not the case in the USA either.
For example their human right to not be tortured continues to exist.You can't tie someone up and spend days breaking their fingers and raping them because "As soon as they cross my door uninvited their human rights no longer exist."
They also still have a human right not to be subjected to slavery. You can't imprison them and force them to work your fields for the next 8 years because they broke in to your house.
Why do people think that human rights are somehow protecting burglars etc.? I see no evidence where the existence of human rights are protecting burglars and criminalising home owners.

Doodlez · 19/09/2011 11:46

OK MQ - good points. I'm knee-jerk reacting here because :-

a) it's on my door step

b) Some scrotes entered my house last year whilst I was putting the children to bed. My DH was out. They took the car keys, nicked car and never heard owt since. IF either me or the kids had gone in to the kitchen whilst they were in there, the police assure us they would have had no hesitation in bashing any of us about if we put up any kind of fight (my children were 9 and 7 at the time).

So I don't give a flying toss about THEIR freakin' human rights because it's all too emotive and close to home for me.

mayorquimby · 19/09/2011 11:56

Which is exactly why we don't let victims decide the punishment for crimes etc. and that human rights are vital. Otherwise we'd have the death penalty for burglary, because like yourself, I wouldn't give a toss if I heard someone who broke into my house met an unfortunate demise or if someone who attacked a family member was beaten to death.

Original poster
Triggles · 19/09/2011 13:39

When I lived in the states and worked for the police, common "unofficial" advice was when someone broke into your home and threatened you (and your family), you make damn sure that your story is the only one the police hear. In other words, if it's down to them or you that survive, you make sure it's you, even if you have to empty an entire clip into them. (yes, gun culture Grin)

I have seen some horrendous burglary situations where it was home invasion and the family was tortured and killed. I'm not taking the chance. If someone breaks in, and they don't run the minute they realise someone's in the house, then IMO they're giving up all rights to leave by foot and prefer a stretcher. I would have no problem killing someone to protect myself and my children.

I hope for that family's sake that someone gets rid of those flowers. It must have been a horrible experience for them, and the flowers are a bit like a smack in the face IMO.

OP posts: