"Childcare In The UK 'Most Expensive In World'" Sky news report

[LittlePickleHead]

news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16064005

The cost of childcare is forcing women to turn down jobs or give up work because they can't afford the cost of childcare.

This is true personally, DH and I are holding off on trying for DC2 until DD is in school as putting two into childcare would cost more than I can earn. Much tougher is on those who already have children who have no lost tax credits or subsidised childcare and are now being forced into poverty.

My cycnical side thinks that taking mothers out of the workplace has many benefits for the government...

apart from the basic changes I already proposed (more highly subsidised nurseries, tax breaks for nanny employers), the government should help encourage more flexible forms of childcare - e.g., mums organising their own after school clubs in non-served areas (rural, etc.) without undue regulation.

i think highly-qualified women who want to work but don't because of the costs are taking a very short-term view - they are missing out on future earnings potential by taking long or permanent breaks. As others say, the bulk of the costs are front-loaded in the pre-school years.

Of course it's different if women make the choice for non-financial reasons.

This is a really interesting thread with lots of well-argued points and I haven't got time to read it all at the moment, but would like to add/support others' points that being able to maintain some work is a long-term investment, even if to begin with you are not making much each month. If the only work you can do is paid less per hour than chidcare costs, then it's probably not worth it, but if you have some qualifications and you are in a 'career' with prospects (even if quite humble, like mine) then it is worth sticking at if you want to, or have to.
For me working is also insurance against disaster in my self-employed dh's career, which is happening right now, so thank goodness I am five years in to this career and can at least survive for a few months in times of crisis.
I have also worked in childcare in the past and feel it is important to pay workers well and have high standards.
You can make a decent living as a childminder if you are lucky and in the right area, but it's not for everyone (def not me!)

Badger,
Well I know from living in the UK, and living in Denmark, that my taxes are actually not that different once things like council tax are taken into account (hardly anyone pays 60% tax, it is a bit like the 50p tax here). Plus the wages were much higher. I certainly find it much more affordable to live there even before the cheaper housing and childcare is taken into account and people have higher take home wages even after tax. I certainly do not think British people (on average) could afford to pay any more tax though as wages are so low, and the cost of living so expensive.
Bikingviking,
I know we are thinking of returning as the costs of living in the UK are so huge. We did the calculations, and staying in the same type of jobs, and taking into account the difference in housing, childcare etc, we would be financially better off by a huge amount if we returned to DK.

scottishmummuy this is a frequent misconceptioin about 'not for profit' organisations - money is still 'made' as in employees and managers are paid normal rates or the rates they decide to set, but there is not one person at the top or a board of directors making disproportionate amounts while paying their workers min wage. There may be volunteers on a board or helping out because they want to, and getting work experience.
There are lots of not for profit pre-schools, nurseries, etc run by churches, charities, Sure Start, trusts. Where something provides a social benefit by being affordable to more people, it makes sense for it to be not for profit. Same in other sectors, like social transport schemes, community recycling, charity workers, befriending schemes...not for profit doesn't mean nobody makes any money!

Denmark is near the top and the UK at the very bottom because the table is in alphabetical order.

Pomme - believe me - they have all tried to do flexiworking of some description (and continue to do so) but (a) freelance is a nightmare because then you have to arrange 'emergency' type childcare to fit in with the erratic work schedule, which costs a bomb (if you can get it), and (b) part-time is pretty much impossible for most of the roles - GPs and consultants and professors end up effectively on 'rota' systems that inevitably don't tie in with children's needs, and the solicitors/accountants roles tend to have to work to deadlines that are put in place by clients. some parents I know have been lucky enough to have already built up enough of a reputation where they work to get switched to family-friendly hours, but for people trying to get back in the market or who want to work outside London it is pretty much impossible.

All these people I know personally carried on working for around 4-8 years after having their first child before giving up reluctantly (usually once child no 2 reached about 2 years old - most mums tried for at least 2 years before admitting defeat). A couple of other mums (myself included) carry on with work and TBH the SAHM look at the lives we lead and decide that the stress we go through to try to get ourselves a week of work here and there is just not worth it - especially when the two of us who do freelance-type work ended up spending the whole summer holiday working because that happened to be when the jobs came up (and if you don't take a good proportion of what your contacts offer you then they stop calling you....) Believe me, it is not nice when your client pulls a meeting out of a hat and you end up asking your weekly cleaner to come and sit with your kids for an afternoon because no other options are available. I spent 8 years working a variety of full and part time roles before trying freelance and this is the reality of how far down you come just to ensure you keep on working to 'keep your hand in' for when the kids are older. And the part-time option I tried with a 'family-friendly' organisation ended up with my missing my son's first nativity and being told to go work in Germany for 3 days a week......

As I said, none of them (or I) are in dire straits, and none of us have any idea of what it's like to have to try to balance it all simply in order to get form one week to the next, so we are bloody lucky compared with others, but it is still absolutely ridiculous that in the UK today 2 parents cannot stay working at some level in reasonable jobs (if they choose), especially given that such parents do have that option in most other developed countries. And they have the option because (a) childcare is directly subsidised by the govt and is the default option for many parents, and (b) parental responsibility is recognised by workplaces as being exactly that - parental. Not a female issue, or a 'mum' thing, or something for couples to work out between them, just a responsibility that employees have which needs to be accommodated by employers. And workplaces will not get to that level of acceptance without being pushed/assisted by the govt, because the cost for them is too great when they have to shoulder the burden alone.

stillsquiffy,
Can I just ask why the fathers are not doing more childcare, as it seems from your friends the women are expected to juggle work and childcare, but the men just work.

Stillsquiffy that's such a good point about employers still not seeing childcare as an employee issue. Never ever came up in my DHs interviews, even though he would mention a young child. When I was trying to go to ft work, I was always honest about DD (how could I not be) but every employer asked how I would work it around childcare. Not 'oh how can we work it out together' but how will YOU sort it. If the same was assumed of fathers at least we would get to a stage where noone is penalised for it or misses out on opportunities, because employers will automatically have to take it into account whether male or female
I'm sure this is another reason that it's the woman who ends up giving up the career, it's just another in the many hoops there are to jump through
FWIW DH just got a new job working til 6 most days. My job has just had to fall in line with it so I now finish at 5 (apart from the occassional day). I'm lucky my boss has been understanding, as this wasn't the hours they were hiring for in the position

Nominally I am on a £40K per annum salary. I work "part" time 4 days per week which gives net £1976 and the combined nursery fees for my 1 year old and my 2.5 year old are £1993.34 leaving me with minus £17 per month . This is before petrol, car expenses (to get to nursery/work) professional clothes for work etc. Getting back on the job ladder after taking several years out to look after my two (very much missed during the working day) babies would be virtually impossible especially in today's job market, and this is after I had taken a salary job of one third before my first pregnancy to find a regular hours role in order to be able to fit round childcare/nursery hours. On the one hand I feel lucky that I am "only" in debt of £17 in terms of childcare every month. On the other hand it is totally soul destroying and confidence wrecking

what am i doing wrong? Am I paying rediculously expensive childcare (I live in oxfordshire) or is this all standard stuff.

Vanilla - your childcare sounds comparible to mine and your finances similar - this is why I cannot have DC2 until DD is at school (though I would despertately love one now for a smaller age gap). We do rely on the small bit of extra salary I do have have at the moment.

"Denmark is near the top and the UK at the very bottom because the table is in alphabetical order."

Being more precise Denmark is 10th while the UK is 24th out of 27, so I think "near the top" and "bottom" are terms that can be used, I'll concede that "very bottom" was perhaps an overstatement though.

Denmark's tax burden is about 25% higher than it is in the UK.

I've seen these figures presented in a number of different ways and the conclusion is always that we have a lower total tax burden than the vast majority of other European (not just EU) countries.

school hours are mad imo.

why shouldnt care be provided from 8am till 6 or so to provide wrap around care for working families at not for profit rate. obviously nto by hard working teachers but by other carers.

as a cm i have parents paying me for a space they need to keep while their children are at school so i can have then in the holidays or for training days, i have to still charge them full rate because i cant afford not to.

in the uni debate, i have 2 dcs at uni now and its ridiculous to spout on about loans, the loan they get just about pays the rent not food or living costs so we have to fund these, they work in the holidays of course but in term time they have to study, i have to work to fund this, no option.

"Can I just ask why the fathers are not doing more childcare"

The system still presumes that women will be doing the childcare and forces most couples down that path.

Men and women do not have equal choices and rights when it comes to taking career breaks because of children. Women are given better options and therefore when push comes to shove most couples will be forced into a position where it makes the most "sense" for the woman to be the one to take the career break.

The system should stop being sexist and presuming that the mother will be the one to do this. Maternity and Paternity rights should be rolled into one thing called Parental Rights and then let the parents as usually intelligent adults work out what's going to work best for them.

I think I must live in the mythical place where childcare is cheaper. My sister worked as a nanny for a family with 3 children, 1 at nursery, 1 baby and 1 at school. She was paid £6.00 an hour so the families childcare for a 40 hour (3 long days and 2 half days) week would have been £240.00. She quite the job recently and there were plenty of well qualified people willing to take the job for that wage. Perhaps you all need to move to scotland. Then house prices are cheaper here too

goodname - it sounds like no one was paying her tax - or she was making less than minimum wage if that is a gross figure per hour. My nanny would be about 33% cheaper if i weren't covering tax and NI.

I earnt £2300 net a month working three days a week - my nanny(and her tax and NI) took £1800 a month, my travel was £380 a month, and after trying to juggle being a working mother over the course of 3 children, I gave up after having number 4 because it just wasn't worth it - I don't want to continue banging my head against the glass ceiling any more - as a mother I was already being sidelined. My colleagues were almost all men, earning well into 6 figures with SAH Wives. I didn't want to compromise my family further by never seeing the children and barely seeing DH as we passed like ships in the night as he headed off around Europe/Asia etc just as I was getting back. And that would have gone on for years, given the number of children I have - going back to FT working wouldn't have happened for quite some time yet. It's not a life that I wanted to chose - and yet I know many women DO want that - and fair play and hats off to them - horses for courses!

If childcare had been cheaper, would have have stayed? Probably not - I was headhunted for a job earning well into 6 figures, but turned it down because I would have been travelling almost all the time - it's not compatible with small children, even though it would have been my dream job pre-children.

I will go back to work eventually, although I'm under no illusions that it will be anywhere near the same levels. I know that I'm lucky to have a choice to be at home but it's not a natural state for me, and I find it VERY hard - but it's the right decision for the children and the family at the moment. You only get one life and I don't want to look back counting my money, and think I spent it at the office!

Good post CustardCake

stillsquiffy I think you're making sweeping statements there - obviously based on your own experience, but that is not my experience. I am a lawyer, as is my husband, and a number of our friends. We also have other professional friends as you have mentioned - doctors, accountants. Most have gone back to work.

I work 3 days a week and a number of my colleagues also work reduced hours (3 or 4 days). Its not as black and white as saying that child care isn't available for wrap around care and therefore professionals cannot carry on with their careers. Yes its difficult (we have 2 school aged children that finish at 3pm and one at nursery) we have no family in the area so my husband and I act effectively like a relay team - he drops off, I collect (and we use an after school club for 2 days a week). My husband works about 10 miles from home, I commute 120 miles a day (specifically because my firm is relatively family friendly). We both often work at night when the children are in bed - my husband came back for bathtime last night and went back to work until 1am.

I come out with about £1000 per month after childcare costs so its worthwhile for me to work.

I think its about choices and juggling - there is always going to be a trade off between a pre-baby career and a post-baby career, people have to factor that in to the decision about whether to have a family or not. If you're a City lawyer or a GP on call, of course its going to be very difficult but those people know that before they have a child and perhaps they should look at other options before they get pregnant.

i am a registered childminder, i think that people dont really think about what a childminder has to do within her day, i currently charge £3.50 for an hour and people think this is still too much!!!!this is less then minimum wage!

We are not a charity we are self employed, i think you that all childmonders should give them selves a pat on thier back cause we do a good job fpr the small pay we recieve.

brummie yes but you can have 3 or 4 children depending on circs which takes you well over minimum wage. Also some can charge much more than £3.50 an hour depending on income of their clients, service offered, etc. I have had plenty of friends do childminding as it has many benefits, not necessarily financial ones!

Good post, Mandy21

@ Scottishmummy - I am not suggesting that those setting up and running childcare should not be running a successful business and making a good living out of doing so. I am suggesting that money is not syphoned off to pay third party profits. I mean 'not-for-profit' as in after everyone directly involved has been paid a decent salary for their input, plus costs taken out = profit, which is then put back into the nursery.
Our nursery used to be very successfully family-run business, which the owners (who had of course quite rightly done very well out of and it was the most successful nursery in the area because of it's very nature being a local family business) then sold on to a small chain, and since terms&conds for the staff and the fabric of the nursery have deteriorated. Money is being taken away from the business and paid to it's executive directors. Yes they put up the money to buy the business and yes they expect their cut/profits, but it would be more beneficial for the nursery itself if that wasn't the case.

brummie I don't think anyone is arguing that childcarers should be paid less, just that more of the cost should be government subsidised.

The previous government and childcare sector have had a big drive to upskill the child care workforce. The expectation is for there to a be graduate lead in all settings- this includes childminders. Along with this was the introduction of EYPS (early years professional status). Under the Labour government all settings had to have an EYP in place by 2015. This means that many senior childcarers have spent on average 7 years training to be fully qualified. This isn't unreasonable, we want and need very well educated and skilled professionals caring for children especially in their earliest years. What is unreasonable is the salary we then expect them to work for. Many senior staff and managers earn below 25k for a 45 hour week. Those in other sectors and childminders often earn far less.
What is a sad reflection is that these well qualified and experienced professionals also cannot afford to work in childcare themselves and so often do not stay for the long haul. This causes a high turnover of staff, unsettled children and anxious parents.
Large chain nurseries make huge profits- whilst state nurseries are facing closure due to funding issues so some are making money whilst others are not. Without subsidised funding childcare will be only for the rich and the poorest families in relation to affording childcare- often those earning just above the WTC threshold, will never be able to afford it.