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Dale Farm et al

361 replies

AnneWiddecomesArse · 05/09/2011 22:51

A continuation...

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 09/09/2011 17:43

Are you saying that racism is only possible between people whose skin colour is different, Giveitago? If so, your definition is not the same one the United nations uses:

'...the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.'

BetsyBoop · 09/09/2011 17:49

.BetsyBoop, I think if the courts accepted that 90% of Traveller pp applications are refused because of the identity of the people making the applications (see an earlier link), then so should you -- or do you only accept what the courts say when it comes to eviction of Travellers?

No, the link you gave said
"statistics given to the court found that 90 percent of applications made by Gypsies and Travellers had been refused"

That is NOT the same thing at all as saying 90% were refused simply BECAUSE their ethnic origin was gypsy or traveller and if a non-gypsy/traveller person had submitted the plans they would have been passed without a problem.

They were refused because they didn't like what they were proposing to build or where they were proposing to built it, or both. Or more likely what they had already built in many cases I expect - as I said before retrospective PP is always more like to fail especially when building has taken place without any consideration to local development plans & guidelines - there are dozens of "rukes" everyone else has to follow to get PP, type of materials, height of roofline, size of windows, highway access, consideration on impact on local services and many more - most successful PP applications involves compromises being made by the applicant - are you suggesting all traveller PP applications should be exempt from these "rules" just because they want to ignore them and won't compromise? I agree that councils & travellers need to work closer together to identify places where they stand a good chance of PP - but the current approach often used of move in on the Friday of a BH weekend & have a "fait accompli" mini village by the following Tuesday morning & go for retrospective PP is almost doomed to fail. Compromise is the key word here, something a lot of traveller groups seem totally unwilling to do.

Your definition of "subsistence living" would see quite a proportion or farmers, and self employed people in the settled community being categorised in that way too, so again why special treatment for one group?

You obviously know a lot about the life & treatment of travellers in Ireland and Roma in europe, but it's not really relevant to the case in question here - and in any case we have limited influence on European/Irish politice & laws.

mathanxiety · 09/09/2011 20:38

Really? 90% of applications were so faulty they were turned down?

Since the majority of Traveller applications are in fact granted on appeal, often retrospectively, it would appear that either Travellers (1) are in fact exempt from the rules, or that (2) planning authorities like squeezing the additional fees incurred in the appeals process from the Travellers, or (3) planning authorities will not countenance pp applications from Travellers unless faced with overwhelming evidence that they have an overwhelming need to live in a certain place or that they are absolutely determined to do so.

Steps necessary for Travellers to secure pp on appeal here. The fact that the initial pp application will be denied is a foregone conclusion. One necessary step is a costly appeal, or series of appeals. The LAs require a lot of information and certification even after the normal building code requirements have been presented in the initial application (they are not so stupid as to fall foul of the codes in their applications and give LAs a stick to beat them, thus tripping over the first hurdle through their own fault).

From 'Inequalities Experienced by Gypsy and Traveller Communities' paper -- 'over 90 per cent of planning applications for private (usually self- or family owned) Gypsy sites are refused at first hearing, often following orchestrated campaigns by aggrieved (sedentary) local residents, though permission is overwhelmingly granted on appeal ' (CRE, 2006a; Williams, 1999).' CRE = Commission for Racial Equality. This is why the Dale Farm residents fancied their chances through the appeals process.

Wrt provision of sites by the LAs, (not pp for sites on private land)
(report here) 'The problem is simply
that there is no means of telling which councils are carrying out reasonably accurate caravan counts and which are not. This is not a secure base upon which to build planning provision...'
'...In the past applications for sites have been judged against criteria-based policies and mostly planning permission has been acquired through the appeals system. Alice Lester of the Planning Advisory Service, at the launch conference of the RTPI Good Practice Advice Note No 4 (Planning for Gypsies and Travellers, March 2008-7), stated that during some work on good practice by local authorities in relation to planning provision for sites the researchers could not find a single example of a planning application for a Gypsy/Traveller site that could be considered to have been straightforward and gone well.'

Here are some sound proposals related to LAs, planning and provision of pitches/sites that indicates the high level of official prejudice against dealing with this hot potato. Again nothing to do with pp for private land pp applications.

P. 23 and p. 24 'A Big or Divided Society', paper presented in the Jubilee Room, Westminster Hall, House of Commons on the 11th May 2011 at a reception hosted by Lord Avebury and Andy Slaughter MP. - 'Final Recommendations and Report of the Panel Review into the Coalition Government Policy on Gypsies and Travellers' :
'Cllr Richard Bennett (former chair of the Local Government Association working group on Gypsies and Travellers) felt that 'localism? was not what some people feared. In his evidence to the Panel he noted that:
―"Turning to localism, I think the general public are going to find that localism isn't everything they thought it was going to be. And I, in my own district, have already been saying to people localism is about making hard decisions. It's about saying where you want development to take place in the future, and which areas do you want to be preserved in aspic. It's not about saying we don‟t want that here?.
Core strategies would still need to be in place and a national planning framework would provide some direction and identification of objectives. Cllr Bennett noted that in some areas positive relations had been forged between councils and Gypsy and Traveller communities and that it was possible for conflict as well as retrospective planning applications and unauthorised developments to be avoided. The notable example was Conservative controlled Fenland Council where, through good channels of communication and dialogue, Gypsies and Travellers were encouraged to approach the council before they submitted a planning application or moved onto land and applied for retrospective planning permission'

Roger Yarwood, former Head of Planning Services, Derbyshire Dales District Council noted (wrt provision of sites by LAs, not wrt pp by individuals wishing to develop their own land):
―"Planning Authorities are already adept at framing policies that make the provision of Gypsy sites difficult. As I mentioned earlier, I have been involved in numerous consultations on Local Development Frameworks and I attend many enquiries to offer evidence. In that work, I am constantly trying to introduce some realism into planning policies to ensure that those policies will actually result in the delivery of Gypsy sites. It's an uphill struggle and if it were not for the vigilance and overriding control of Planning Inspectors, and the necessity to comply with the guidance set out in ODPM Circular 01/2006, many local authorities would produce policy documents which would make Gypsy and Traveller site provision almost impossible. Both these safeguards are now under threat [by the ConDem Localism Bill]?
It was argued that experiences such as these accounted for Gypsies and Travellers having little trust or confidence in councils and contributed to the occurrence of retrospective planning applications'

It is the hopelessness of Travellers (and Gypsies/Romani) wrt the formal planning process that retrospective planning permission becomes almost the only way to be permitted to live on land they own.

They are hopeless because prejudice prevents LAs even from providing public sites on public land, let alone granting applications for pp on private land.

Life and conditions for Travellers are 100% relevant to the case of the Travellers in Dale Farm. They are there because of the issues surrounding pp and those issues are there because of prejudice.

PigletJohn · 09/09/2011 21:12

math

just let me check that (I found it difficult to follow the line of thought on your mass cut-and-pastes)

You say "Since the majority of Traveller applications are in fact granted on appeal"

If this is true (I haven't seen any evidence) then it blows out of the water the claim that Travellers can't get planning permission.

Can you clarify this point for me?

PigletJohn · 09/09/2011 21:18

giveitago,

did you get a reply to your points

"giveitago Fri 09-Sep-11 16:35:26
How come you have such in depth knowledge of the traveller community math?

I say traveller at this time (not gypsy or roma) as the ones I met near the dale farm at a car boot in spring were clearly white and giving my dm racist abuse.

Oh so what's the difference between eastern european roma and those who originate generations back from india."

mathanxiety · 09/09/2011 22:30

90% of their initial applications are turned down. Those that can afford to appeal or are willing to risk the potential of wasted expense, and gamble by going ahead anyway with site development, and who have the neck to hang on in the teeth of local opposition (the appeal process can wind on for years) have a high chance of their appeals being being upheld. As time has worn on, the appeal process has come to be seen as an integral part of the normal pp process for Travellers (and Romany), with retrospective pp as an important part of the process, but not the only grounds of appeal that have proved successful.

Here's what I was getting at in my post:
LAs do not provide enough public camping sites. They are free to indulge their prejudices against Travellers and Romany because government looks the other way (aka the 'light touch'). Traveller-friendliness is not rewarded by voters.
The next best option (because they need somewhere to live, to receive healthcare and to send their children to school) is to acquire and develop a private site.
Getting pp for such sites is no easy matter because prejudice also stalks the pp process.
Retrospective pp has been found to be one of the best ways to gain security in their own homes, though there are other grounds on which appeals can be made.
Retrospective pp solves the problem of finding a place to live in the short term, a very pressing problem given the fact that LAs do not provide enough camp pitches.
And so we return to the beginning of the cycle.

(This is an example of Traveller adaptation to circumstances)

I have an old school friend whose academic career has been focused on Irish Travellers and I am very interested in her work. My dad was involved for years in county politics and education administration in a south-eastern Irish county and took a lot of interest in Traveller issues esp. wrt education. A cousin of my dad's was also involved in county administration; her job directly involved dealing with Travellers, specifically women and children. I have other relatives who are involved in Irish politics and the legal profession and who have been directly involved in Traveller issues. I am not involved in Traveller representation myself. I got interested in them as a by-product of an interest in Irish history, identity and politics.

As to the difference between Eastern European Roma and those who originated long ago in India -- they all originated generations back in India, right?

cookcleanerchaufferetc · 10/09/2011 10:22

At the end if the day, NOBODY should be above the law .... Fairly simple fact.

The law needs to be amended so that if anyone is squatting/living illegally they should be kicked out immediatey without the need for lengthy delays as this county experiences.

This applies to everyone, people at Dale Farm as well as those who invade private properties such as the case of the doctor and his pregnant wife in London.

PrincessTamTam · 10/09/2011 12:46

It is not as simple as saying 'NOBODY is above the law'
What if the law is wrong/flawed and needs changing? The law wrt squatting is a case in point.
What if the law is not applied evenly and without prejudice?

Squatting is a whole other issue and a whole other thread.

PigletJohn · 10/09/2011 13:21

"It is not as simple as saying 'NOBODY is above the law' "

Well that depends what the question is

If the question is "should people be permitted and encouraged to break the law and get away with it?" then it is that simple.

If the question is "which people should be permitted and encouraged to break the law and get away with it?" then it is not that simple, but I have not yet seen that question asked.

ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 10/09/2011 13:34

Can anyone confirm that there is trouble at Dale Farm today? My family are in Essex near Basildon and my brother has been told to avoid the area as it's all kicking off.

giveitago · 10/09/2011 21:29

"Are you saying that racism is only possible between people whose skin colour is different, Giveitago? If so, your definition is not the same one the United nations uses:"

Where in my post do I suggest that Math?

Seems to me you both ask and answer the questions.

butterscotch · 10/09/2011 21:32

Bubbles4 sorry if I offended sympathy for this group of travellers is very low in my book but I live nearby I live with their shit every day, fact we have two other sites nearby that HATE the Dale farm travellers, they won't have them attach to their sites because of how different they are to them.

My mate had a car 4x4 stolen by the travellers, so it is a fact,police would do anything even though there were witnesses! Sorry no grreem eyed grim me if I can't afford it I would steal it where's the pleasure in owning something you haver earnt!

Dale farm is quite frankly toxic the other sites nearby have no trouble, Dale Farm gives all travellers a bad name!

chickenshavenoeyebrows we're away for weekend, but I know the high street in Wickford the stores were asking fir extra security and shutting up earlier than normal, police were expecting trouble, schools were giving warnings to stay away from the high street today because they're were fears of it kicking off!!!

butterscotch · 10/09/2011 21:36

Daily fail links families back to Having a home back in Ireland

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2035826/Dale-Farm-eviction-Travellers-secretly-Irish-houses.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

WhollyGhost · 10/09/2011 21:55

I'm told that the BBC has been filming the mansions back in Rathkeale.

There are so many groups in society who are seemingly above the law - including some notable bankers, developers, and now a group of travellers. I think that the latter are probably not as well connected as they think and risk being made an example of.

FellatioNelson · 11/09/2011 09:06

Well Paddy winning BB is a signal that your average joe and joanna in the UK are not racist towards travellers just for the point of racism itself, and they are prepared to take each individual at face value and give them a fair chance. But still, collectively, there is strong anti-traveller sentiment and that surely can only be based on the lifestyle factors that impact negatively on the settled community, and people's own experiences at the hands of groups of travellers who seemingly act as one on so many levels.

WhollyGhost · 11/09/2011 13:01

yep, I've said it before, but Travellers are not going to be recognised by people who've not had a lot of contact with them.

So, where there is discrimination, it is from people who have had bad experiences (and there were many horrific ones deleted on the last thread). That is not racism, that is sensible.

WhollyGhost · 11/09/2011 14:14

Re-reading my post above, it is open to misinterpretation, so before it is deleted - I don't mean that discrimination against Travellers because of who they are is acceptable. Of course it is not.

But where there is a great deal of anti-social behaviour, there will be tensions, and if discrimination is to be tackled, it should be possible to discuss the real problems and fears that other communities have.

SarahStratton · 11/09/2011 19:33

Thought you might be interested in this as a fine example of kindness and thoughtfulness. :)

butterscotch · 11/09/2011 22:29

That's awful Sarahstratton, it's sad people can behave that way to another human being :-(

mathanxiety · 12/09/2011 00:05

"should people be permitted and encouraged to break the law and get away with it?"

Good question. Does the way the planning permission process works (when Travellers make applications anyway) in fact encourage contempt for the law, as the law appears on the surface anyway? Or does the way Travellers see the law and go about the pp process reveal a truth about the law that is unpalatable to some other sections of society?

After all, in the case of planning permission, the law is not applied evenly and without prejudice initially, and then it is disregarded by the planning authorities themselves....

There is no such thing as 'above the law'. There is clearly a different view and experience of what the law in its various processes consists of. For Travellers in the case of PP, possession is nine tenths of the law and this appears to be recognised by the pp authorities.

WhollyGhost · 12/09/2011 07:03

Mathanxiety - have you the slightest evidence that Travellers are discriminated against when it comes to initial applications for PP? As has been pointed out to you, the bald numbers don't tell you that.

WhollyGhost · 12/09/2011 09:40

SarahStratton - I started another thread about that, and reported my OP. If there is any consistency my thread will be deleted.

It seems like somebody at MNHQ has been running amok on these Dale farm threads, deleting anything they personally don't like reading, regardless of whether it breaks rules.

And judging by this thread, it's not just here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1297643-to-think-MNHQ-should-not-be-deleting-posts-in-this-way-WARNING-Ranty

mathanxiety · 12/09/2011 17:08

When 90% of applications are turned down it points to discrimination. 90% is a huge percentage of denials.

Judging by the general opinion here about Travellers, and the fact that initial planning permission applications can be objected to by members of the public, I think I am absolutely correct in my assumptions.

Judging by this Devon booklet, there is much ugliness when it comes to Gypsy and Traveller planning applications.

Here are some excerpts --

'When different communities are involved, as with the Gypsy and Traveller community and the settled community, it can be even harder to find a fair way to handle applications. Town and Parish Councillors, in their role as community leaders, are in a position to set an open -minded and professional tone to the way in which site applications are dealt with.'

'As with all planning applications, some meetings where Gypsy and Traveller applications are being considered can be emotive and contentious...Using racist language or reading out letters with racist content is unlawful.'

'Advice Before The Meeting:
Letters submitted to the Council containing racist content should be returned to the sender. You should request that they reword the letter in order for it to be considered.'

Councillors are reminded:
'The application must be decided solely on planning issues. A person's history, lifestyle, race, religion, age, gender etc are all irrelevant to the planning process.'

In the section entitled 'Racism, Prejudice and the Law', the Equality Act 2010 is mentioned and the duty of the council to foster positive inter-community relations is noted. The Public Order At (1986) is also cited.

'Hate campaigns and leafletting can be extremely damaging to community relations [well duh], and may be subject to legal action.'

FreddyG · 12/09/2011 20:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

cookcleanerchaufferetc · 12/09/2011 21:42

If 90% of applications are being turned down, have you considered that it is not discrimination but actually the applicants just taking the pis and submitting proposals which are against the law/regulations etc? Just because they are travellers doesn't mean someone is being biased, more likely that the applications are invalid for all sorts of reasons.