To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

kelly, link? I'm pretty sure it's mother's life at risk only.

Well I asked about it in my ante-natal classes and got told to shut up.

Apparently the line is that pregnant women don't need to know about anything which might upset/unnerve them which is pretty stupid in my view.

Yes breaktime et al good point.

So.

I read something about Nadine's proposal in the Independant today here

Oh the hypocrisy! Bullying tactics and pure enjoyment for attacking someone who dares to have a different opinion to you and you accuse me being nasty and enjoying this too much? You really do see a different side of MN on these threads.

You are right bumbley I have kept some of my posts fairly light-hearted (within the standard MN style) mainly as I do not want this thread to descend into a flame-fest. Sorry if that's offended anyone, but that was the intention.

Do you know what - I was thinking earlier what a tribute to MN it was that we'd managed to have a 500+ post thread on this subject with relatively little unpleasantness.

Unfortunately that's now changed and I think bumbleymummy has shown huge disrespect to some posters who have shared incredibly painful stories and then been told they've contributed little to the debate in her view.

I agree with the suggestion to disengage.

It's ok Wilson - you get away with it because you agree with the majority. It's only the minority that get criticised for it even though I was using it for the same reasons as you. Im pretty much used to being in the minority on these threads though and I've gotten used to the bullying tactics of certain posters.

I think TYV - you should look back at how little acknowledgement a poster got when she shared her story about her regret of her abortion if you want to see disrespect. Of course that would have been overlooked because she happened to agree that counselling would be a good idea. The poster who I said had contributed little to the debate over the last few pages (specifically said that) has done nothing except throw insults and make false allegations about me. Have a read before you join in with those false allegations why don't you? Although it's always easier to stay with the 'in' crowd.

bumbley - I don't doubt for one minute that abortion is a medical procedure. I am not stupid. But what I wanted you to clarify was why you contrast it with pregnancy/birth, as if they are not medical procedures. That was my question.

It was discussed earlier by chandellina BIWI - births are not necessarily a medical procedure - many women have natural births. If a woman needs medical intervention then those risks are explained at the time.

So what if birth and pregnancy are natural, it is still far more dangerous than abortion. saying we want women to be given all the information, just not information relating to the dangers of pregnancy as the risk of death and illness is a natural one is a cop out and just an excuse to peddle only anti-abortion advice. Pregnancy is dangerous and people have the right to know. Sex is also a natural process, but people want women to be informed about that. Refusing to tell women about the dangers of pregnancy is treating women as nothing better than breeding cows, and thieves their autonomy.
I can imagine no other condition where a doctor was told not to tell a patient about the risks of their condition as the condition occurred naturally.

Back to the point of the thread....

I would always support easier access to counelling services for women who wanted it. But councelling is not for everybody and forcing somebody to go through it against their wishes is a gross invasion of their privacy.

if ND truly has the best interest of women at heart then she should be doing as a previous poster suggested and rolling out a survey to women who have been through the abortion process to see if there really is a need for such a service. They are the only people who can actually understand what, if anything is needs changing regarding the emotional support.

Nobody who has not suffered a crisis pregnancy can possibly dictate effectively what these women need.

I personally was always anti abortion. I was a cocky know it all who had no understanding of the darker side of life. I categorically stated to a friend that I could never have an abortion, i beleived it to be wrong, during a chat. About 2 weeks later i found out i was pregnant and i instantly changed my view point.

I felt very sad about it but I have never, ever regretted it! So to all who think they know what other women need, who judge and think they could never be so careless, THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD......

I'm sorry, but I take huge issue with this. What on earth do you mean by a 'natural' birth? How many women give birth without any medical attention at all? For women in the Western world, birth is a medical procedure.

Even if you're at home, choosing not to have any drugs, you will still be attended by midwives.

I am very, very concerned that you are trying to portray birth as something far removed from the medical profession, which could not be further from the truth.

Although I can see that it would suit a Pro-Lifer to portray abortions as nasty, dangerous, medical procedures, and birth as a lovely, natural, non-intervention-type procedure. This is absolutely not the case, though.

Or am I being stupid? Did you mean something else?

Bumbley,
If anyone on here is rude and unpleasant it is you. You do a lot of good for the pro-choice arguement though.

If Dorries really gave two hoots about women she would do something to tackle the high maternal death rate in the UK, the high rate of domestic violence against women which resultings in nearly two women a week being killed by their partners or ex partners, the low conviction rate for sexual offences, and make it easier for women to get contraception. Instead she campaigns for this, and states that if women just said no their would be less sexual abuse. Yeah, Mother Theresa was nothing compared to her when it comes to caring!

Bumbleymummy - you do realise human beings are the only species on the planet that cannot give birth unassisted, right?

Pregnancy may not necessarily involve medical intervention, but giving birth most definitely does.

very true kelly. This womens chamption crap is just a facade, she has her own agenda and the wishes and needs of the people she is supposed to represent are ignored.

Far better that abortions aren't medical and legal and desperate women have to use knitting needles and other unsterile implements. Let's punish those immoral women properly hey? Far better that some sluts die or are made infertile than a foetus is killed.

Kelly - I've already said that I don't think counselling should push anti abortion advice, any more than it should push pro-abortion advice. If you strongly believe that a pregnant woman considering an abortion should also be told the risk of pregnancy/birth then why don't you campaign for that? It isn't standard practice to tell every pregnant woman about the risks, it's not like women who are considering abortion are specifically excluded from hearing that information in some sort of anti-abortion agenda.

Biwi - I think in the UK a 'natural' birth is one where the baby is delivered by a midwife/doctor/partner/yourself without any medical intervention (forceps/ventuose/c-s) this isn't my definition btw so if you have an issue with it you'll have to take it up with the people who classified it. Something you can't blame me for!

Tilly, I know a few women who had to give birth unassisted because they were caught out! Scary for them but obviously possible so I'm not sure what you mean by not being able to give birth unassisted.

There's no such thing as pro abortion, only pro choice.

pamplemousse, this discussion isn't about a campaign to make abortion illegal. It's about independent counselling being offered to (not forced on) all women who are considering abortion. There is obviously some debate over how 'independent' the counselling will be and whether or not it will be enforced but, as it currently stands, it doesn't really sound too objectionable except to those who like to jump to conclusions and think the worst.

Apologies for the slip pp

I would argue that by definition being delivered by a midwife or doctor means that it is a medical procedure. You will also, whilst in the hands of medical practitioners, be being monitored, so part of a medical process, with intervention close at hand should you require more pain relief/anything goes wrong.

it's entirely disingenous to imply or suggest that birth, somehow, is natural (and therefore lovely) whereas abortion is medical (and therefore nasty).

And I don't care whose definitions those are, choosing to describe abortion as medical, as opposed to the birthing process, is what you were doing. And that's totally, wholly and unpleasantly misleading.

bumbley. I know I completely disagree with your position and think it's wholly at odds with supporting women, but if you think abortion is murder/taking life then I can understand how your position cannot change. I can understand how you would want someone to help a woman see how preserving this life is essential. I'm not really sure that either side of this debate can ever change.

Personally I wouldn't like a service that is unbiased and woman centric should muddy it's responsibilities with the morality of abortions, we have the law that allows it, it is not for the state or anyone else to interfere in something that is deeply personal......especially when the state is financially on it's knees and already cripples a woman for being a single mother. Before persecuting these women further and coercing them to have children they do not desire and cannot, in some circumstances, afford the state needs to examine how it treats women as a whole in particular those that stand by their children and raise them alone.

So they didn't even have a partner present? Or a taxi driver? Or a random stranger?

OK, assuming that... They also delivered the placenta by themselves?

OK, assuming that also... They then went about their business with no medical intervention at all?

Nadine Dorries uses the term 'pro-abortion' as well. Just been having a read of her blog.