To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

'independent counsellors' Careconfidential say

?Abortion is undoubtedly a wickedness that grieves God?s heart. As we study the Bible we see that life begins within the womb when the human egg is fertilised and then implanted. The deliberate destruction of the developing child at any stage from this point is to deny the life of the human being ? a most grievous sin in the eyes of God

says who? you guys are just throwing out rubbish that you can't even back up. Give me hard quotes from the woman herself, not your interpretation of what she might ultimately be aiming for.

My little sister was diagnosed with a mental illness about a month ago, she received a letter this morning to arrange counselling. The waiting list is approx 3 months long, from now.
Now imagine she were pregnant...

A month ago she goes to the doctor and says she is pregnant. To have missed her period, she must be at least 4-5 weeks.
Add on a month for a referral for counselling - 8-9 weeks
Then three months waiting for her first session - 20-21 weeks
Then a week or two for the abortion to actually be done - 22-24 weeks.

Interesting. Especially as Ms Dorries wants the limit lowered to 20 weeks...

Btw, my friend had her appointment today, she is further along than the doctor worked out for her (the same doctor who wouldnt refer her, coincidence...?) so now has to have a surgical abortion :(

my last comment was directed to Michelle and Kelly.

onagar - has this Careconfidential actually been hired to do any counselling? or is it just fear mongering that they might be the type of agency looking to win a contract?

I will be writing to my MP to encourage him to SUPPORT this.

"Despite fear mongering in some of the media about delays to abortion provision counselling would not be made compulsory and access to independent counselling would only need to be offered to women under these amendments."

www.cmfblog.org.uk/2011/08/30/make-bias-history-%E2%80%93-a-call-to-support-moves-for-independent-abortion-counselling/?doing_wp_cron

Apparently individuel Ms are exempt, but public instituions and minsiters are not. So we would email the anti-abortion organisatiosn and get details from them if they are charities or public bodies.
Yes how can anyone support a woman who says sex abuse would be prevented if girls said no

Beyond, don't make straw men. Although the who and how if this all still needs to be sorted, there is not going to be a 3 month waiting list! The aim would be to get independent counselling within days, I imagine.

kelly, when did she say this? A quote would be helpful.

She says counsellign will stop 60, 00 abortions.
She says sex abuse could be prevented if young girls said no
She wants to decrease the number of weeks a woman can have an abortion to.
She claims that not-for-profit cahrities are acting for profit, then backs this up with he rown opinion,
she falsly claims abortion increases the chance of mental illness.
No-where in any of her propsals doe sshe say women should be taught about the risks of pregnancy.

So NHS counselling should be available immediately to women who want abortions, but not those who are mentally ill?

chandellina, Surely the point is that unless she wins they can't be, but as independent counsellors they would qualify if she got her way.

However I didn't see the newnight section which examined Careconfidential and others places of that kind so you'll have to ask someone who did for more details.

Chandellina, this counselling is being proposed to reduce the number of terminations. How do you suppose an independent counsellor is going to achieve that reduction?

bartlett, see usingmainlyspoons post.

there are some big leaps of logic going on here. Saying that you think independent counselling could reduce abortion numbers is not the same as assuming counsellers will advise against abortion. I've had counselling for a few things, and never once was I actually given any firm advice on the decision at hand. It was mainly a forum to discuss my feelings and concerns, with the understanding any decisions were in my hands not theirs.

Yes, obviously BBC2's Newsnight is well known for it's scandalous fear-mongering (sic)

Care Confidential is the largest UK organisation offering so-called independent advice on abortion. It claims it has no bias.

However, it's training manual contains such gems as onagar quoted above. 'Abortion is wickedness' etc.

Afaik, no organisations have been contracted as yet, as the amendment has not yet been passed. However, as the largest counselling organisation for abortion in the UK, and as it fits Dorries' own definition of 'independent' in that it has no vested interest in the abortion procedure itself, I don't think it is unreasonable or hysterical to assume that CC will be in with a chance is it?

Apparently, CC have responded to Newsnight saying that they will re-write the manuals, and that they contain 'outdated' and old fashioned information. But I think we all know that they are and will remain a pro-life service that are not 'independent' in the true sense of the word.

I think anyone not admitting that some vulnerable women seeking abortions will be subjected to pro-life counselling as a result of Dorries' Bill is in denial.

the quote cited on that website about child abuse reads:

?If a stronger ?just say no? message was given to children in school then there might be an impact on sex abuse ? if we imbued this message in school we?d probably have less sex abuse.?

you can read that how you want but I read it as urging girls to say no to sexual coercion, rather than going along with the whims of boys they might like, or wanting approval from peers by engaging in unwanted sexual activity.

Did people really miss Nadine's proposal to teach abstinence in schools - but only to the girls?

And her idea that child abuse would be reduced if girls simply said no?

Do you think that child abuse can be prevented by children saying no to their abusers, chandellina?

Do you understand how much upset that remark caused victims of child abuse?

here is one victim's response to Nadine's thoughts on child abuse

Chandellina do you genuinely believe that in the UK, when someone says "child sex abuse" most people think of a teenaged girl going along with things that they are not sure about?

I mean, come off it.

Just thought you all might like to see this.

I filled in the form linked by Eric in the OP yesterday, off it went to my MP. As my MP is also Secretary of State for Health, I copied it all and emailed him in that capacity as well. Today I had this response:

Thank you for your email of 30 August to Andrew Lansley about abortion counselling. I have been asked to reply on his behalf.

The amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill being proposed by Frank Field MP and Nadine Dorries MP are not Government amendments. The current arrangements for counselling related to abortion services can be varied within the existing statutory framework for the commissioning of such services. The Health and Social Care Bill, now before Parliament, expands that framework.

The Department of Health is drawing up proposals to enable all women who are seeking an abortion to be offered access to independent counselling. The Department would want the counselling to be provided by appropriately qualified individuals. Independent counselling will focus on enabling a woman to make a decision that would benefit her overall health and wellbeing.

Independent counselling will be for those women who choose to have it and will not be mandatory. Full proposals are still being worked up within the Department of Health and it is therefore unable to provide detailed answers while this process takes place.

However, the Department can clarify that it does not think that it is necessary to set out the requirement to offer independent counselling in primary legislation. The Department is confident that the necessary legal mechanisms already exist to enable this to be introduced.

I hope this reply is helpful.

Yours sincerely,

Mary Heaton
Customer Service Centre
Department of Health

Going along with things that they are not sure about with a boy of a similar age rather.

Most people think of this as standard teenaged behaviour (whether that is a good thing or not is another conversation), NOT child sex abuse.

i don't know what the context of her comments on child abuse were and the link above doesn't give any. There is a lot of sexual coercion going on from a young age, though. I was subject to it myself and from what I hear from my nieces and other primary and young secondary students it's gotten a lot worse. I do think that qualifies as abuse. If she meant young girls should learn to say no to family members or other adult males abusing them, that's something else entirely.

That is the extent of what she said, chandellina. She said it on a television program IIRC where she was explaining about her abstinence program for girls.

However you take her comments, the fact is that a lot of victims of child abuse took them as blaming them for not "saying no" to their abusers. Not good.