To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

" you were suggesting wrt making people visit morgues/women with tears/complicated births"

I did not suggest this

Why do you want to make women who want abortions watch videos of abortions?

Well it's a rhetorical question really!

I see that you would not make an exemption from the scan for women who have been raped. Is that right?

All pregnant women. Surely if a woman needs help to make the choice to have an abortion she needs help to make the choice to continue with the pregnancy. Why hide the realities of pregnancy just because the risks are natural? And women seeking an abortion, suely they should be told that the risks of pregnancy are greater than the risks of abortion.

I think it would be very useful for all pregnant women to be given the full facts about what it might do to the physically and mentally, yes.

Yes Kelly - and I was pointing out that the equivalent of making pregnant woman watch birthing videos and talk to women who had difficult labours and births is not looking at a scan prior to an abortion - it would be watching an abortion video and talking to women who had difficult/traumatic abortions. Something which she is still sidestepping.

I see that you would not make an exemption from the scan for women who have been raped. Is that right?

kelly - your point about men wrt contraception doesn't really make sense. Women aren't made to feel guilty about taking the pill or getting sterilised either.

SardineQueen Wed 31-Aug-11 11:58:50
bumbley do you think that pregnant women should have to watch videos of birth, videos of women undergoing tears up to the worst possible, videos of corrective surgery afterwards, and listen to women talking about loss of bladder / bowel control, and hear all about the psychological and psychiatric problems that can occur with pregnancy, how long they can go on for and how they are treated, and what they can mean for a person's life, and all about SPD and backache and hyper-emesis and everything else? Up to and including the risk of death?

You were suggesting that this (making a woman who is pregnant look at videos etc..)is equivalent to making a woman who is considering an abortion look at a scan to ensure that she is making an informed decision. I was pointing out that actually the equivalent for a woman considering abortion would be to make her watch an abortion video, speak to women who have had traumatic abortions etc and I don't think you'd encourage that really. It's not the same as looking at a scan.

kelly - the fostering comment peobably wasnt amed at you that time - I'm talking to about 4 people at once here! :)

Oh funny I thought you were talking about this post

"Do you want women to have children they regret, do you think teen mothers who have decided to keep their children should be given tours or morgues, and ob wards where women who are ill through childbirth and pregnancy are"

And were attributing it to me when in fact kelly said it.

My post - sure I could take the video out and have photos shown instead - yes why not? Women aren't aware of this stuff until it happens to them. So many women on MN who have been damaged terribly, physically and mentally, by pregnancy and birth, and they didn't even know these things were risks.

PLease can you answer this though

I see that you would not make an exemption from the scan for women who have been raped. Is that right?

Kelly - it wouldn't make sense to tell every pregnant woman about the risks of pregnancy unless she wanted to know just as it wouldn't make sense to tell every pregnant woman about the risk of abortion if she wasn't considering one or the risk of a c-section if she wasn't having one.

Bumbley,
In the UK it is legal to refuse a woman contraception and sterilization. It is much easier for men to get contraception and sterilization even though it is still legal to refuse them it is much much rarer. And there is no good reson to refuse to give women information about the risks of pregnancy.

SQ - "I could take the video out and have photos shown instead - yes why not? Women aren't aware of this stuff until it happens to them. So many women on MN who have been damaged terribly, physically and mentally, by pregnancy and birth, and they didn't even know these things were risks."

What question are you answering? I was asking you to acknowledge that the above is not equivalent to showing someone a scan pciture before an abortion. Would you show them a video/pics of an abortion and get them to chat to people who were traumatised by theirs?

I have emailed my MP, repeating lots of the excellent points made in this thread.

"Kelly - it wouldn't make sense to tell every pregnant woman about the risks of pregnancy unless she wanted to know just as it wouldn't make sense to tell every pregnant woman about the risk of abortion if she wasn't considering one or the risk of a c-section if she wasn't having one."

Why does it not make sense to tell pregnant women the risks of pregnancy? I genuinely don't understand that.

Pregnant women who don't want abortions probably don't need to be told risks of abortions, sure.

Women are usually told about the risks of C-Section at ante-natal classes as 1/4 of births end with a section. Do you think that policy is wrong?

And

I see that you would not make an exemption from the scan for women who have been raped. Is that right?

Re rape SQ - I think they need to see it because of the informed consent issue tbh but I can see it would be more difficult for them in that situation. Let's face it though, the whole situation is very traumatic in that case :(

So you would not exempt women and girls who have been raped from being forced to look at a scan of their foetus.

Finally we are getting our cards on the table here.

SQ - becasue it isn't a medical procedure. By the same logic you should also inform them of the risk of abortion/c-section/epidurals/g&a from the outset even if they aren't considering them. Info as and when needed.

Anyone who would force a transvaginal scan on a raped woman or child is really really not worth engaging with TBH.

Finally? I've been answering every one of your questions which is more than can be said for you tbh.

bubbly have you actually got any children?

Risks of c-section, epidural, G&A, water birth, induction and all the rest of it are routinely covered at ante-natal classes.

Are you even in the UK? I am very surprised that you do not know these quite basic functions of the NHS in relation to pregnancy and birth.

Given that you have such strong opinions of the quality of the work they do with abortion provision.